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Recordings & Discussions of Cantatas: Cantatas BWV 1-50 | Cantatas BWV 51-100 | Cantatas BWV 101-150 | Cantatas BWV 151-200 | Cantatas BWV 201-224 | Cantatas BWV Anh | Order of Discussion

Cantata BWV 210
O holder Tag, erwünschte Zeit
Cantata BWV 210a
O angenehme Melodei
Discussions - Part 2

Continue from Part 1

Discussions in the November 30, 2008 (2nd round)

Terejia wrote (November 30, 2008):
Introduction to : Cantata BWV 210 O holder Tag, erw¨¹nschte Zeit

For the next five weeks I am honoured to lead the cantata discussions.

I know very well that I am nowhere near knowledgeable members of this list but being encouraged by:
http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/BachCantatas/message/29076
that, with full respect to music specialists whose knowledge is sometimes even paid for, to the best of my understandings, the purpose of this list is more sharing the beauty and joy of the masterpieces rather than providing academically correct data¡£Hence I decided to take this wonderful opportunity gratefully and humbly.
.
I'd like to ask you in advance that you be patient with me for my incompetence or ignorance, although I did my best in preparing. I am a green new solicitor(Shihou Shoshi lawyer in Japan) doing an internship, which will complete as of 19th December. I am no music specialist other than being an amateur organist regularly serving in Cathedral (Japanese Cathedral cannot afford employing professional organist) So I cannot nor am not at all intended to "teach" anything about the masterpieces being discussed but I am wholly intended to invite you to share your joys and blessings concerning the piece with us. My understanding is discussions leaders' role is more in encouraging and inviting others to share the beauty of the piece being discussed rather than literally leading discussions , which is all I can do anyway. Many thanks to Aryeh for giving me, a non-specialist, this joy and honor.

Now it is Sunday afternoon Japan time and I suppose most of the world is later than Saturday evening.

Cantata BWV 210 O holder Tag, erw¨¹nschte Zeit

Previous discussions :
http://www.bach-cantatas.com/BWV210-D.htm
http://www.bach-cantatas.com/BWV210.htm

http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Guide/BWV210-Guide.htm
http://www.classical.net/music/comp.lst/works/bachjs/cantatas/210.php
provides much more refined and academic commentar

I have nothing really to add to former discussions or to these commentars, were it not for the fact that no other leaders have gotten away with quotations.

This cantata is for soprano solo with strings and oboe d'amore plus flute

Starting with recitative¡¡ (Mvt. 1) with peacefully sounding strings accomanyment. For me I didn't feel sure where this complex harmony is heading for until at last it reached to the joyous Mvt. 2 menueto. (personal sidenote: In SMP, Jesus rrecitative are also accompanied with strings)

Mvt. 2 Joyful Aria, What I find particularly attractive is half- tone ascend-5 notes-descend - another descend (either half-tone or whole-tone) by upper instruments and/or soprano voice is combined with 5 diatonic descending line by bass continuo. I suppose this movement is well worth challenging for soprano singers because there seems to be virtuoso requirement somewhere around the middle.. I enjoy Emma Kirkby for her handling virtuoso-requirement gracefully and effortlessly. This virtuoso aspect is mentioned in previous discussions, too.

Mvt. 3 Recitative : there is a section of sudden change in the bass chord
Mvt. 4 Aria somehow pastrale like peaceful atmosphere going on. For me it feels rather strange that continuo rhythm has some similarity with that of opening chorus of St. Matthews Passion. Duet of violin solo and oboe d'amore sounds heavenly beautiful here. Mvt. 5 recitative there is a section where continuo suddenly rushes downward

Mvt. 6: Obligato flute is absolutely beautiful and as for my personal taste I particularly like it when flute is playing triplet notes. I find it rather ironical and paradoxical whereas text says ¡°schweigt¡± the flute is eloquent all the more.. In previous Introduction of this cantata, Dürr takes up this point much more precisely and in a refined way than myself. See the 4th paragraph of the quotation starting with the phrase ¡°In his libretto¡± below: http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Guide/BWV210-Guide.htm

Personal side comments : Now speaking of text ¡°schweigt¡±, I cannot help being reminded of alto part in the most beautiful terzet in the world in Part 5 of Christmas Oratorio interfering soprano-tenor duet with the same text ¡°schweigt¡±/

Mvt. 7 recitative As is usual the case with Bach¡¯s recitative, complexed harmony and music is going on here. The text is about philosophy on music, which seems to be the fundamental question we all here may ask ourselves every now and then, although in my case I have no capacity to express that fundamental question as precisely as the author of this text.

Mvt. 8 Dotted notes followed by contrasting disciplined diatonic ascending notes captures listener¡¯s attention, IMHO .¡¡I like oboe d¡¯more solo obligato. And here we can listen to almost identical music with cantata 30a tenor aria as Therese mentioned last week: http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/BachCantatas/message/29322
to quote Therese from the link above : ¡°Tenor aria (only in BWV 30a): too bad it was left out of BWV 30 - maybe was it too "dancing"? For those who have the Brilliant set, which apparently does not include BWV 30a, it can be heard as soprano aria in BWV 210 (but quality of the rendering can be discussed).

Mvt. 9 and finale Penultimate recitative sounds almost too melancholic and gloomy for wedding cantata and I could hardly imagine how this melancholic recitative is leading toward the joyous tutti of the last movement . I like wavingly sounding oboe d'amore and flauto traverse duet in recitative. Diatonic A-dur scale and subsequent 1/16 notes(roughly speaking) of upper instruments sounds indeed joyously to my ear.

In generall, we can enjoy joyous atomosphere and gracefulness in the music. Your turn for sharing your joys on BWV210!

Thérèse Hanquet wrote (November 30, 2008):
[Toi Terejia] Thanks for your introduction, Terejia, I enjoyed it.

You actually reached your objective with me - it invited me to listen to the cantata immediately!

Terejia wrote (November 30, 2008):
Thérèse Hanquet wrote:
< Thanks for your introduction, Terejia, I enjoyed it. You actually reached your objective with me - it invited me to listen to the cantata immediately! >
http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/BachCantatas/message/29348
Many thanks for your supportive comments and adding my thanks with Ed to your gracious and excellent works in the past weeks.

Terejia wrote (November 30, 2008):
Correction

Terejia wrote:
http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/BachCantatas/message/29346
< Mvt. 2 Joyful Aria, What I find particularly attractive is half- tone ascend-5 notes-descend - another descend (either half-tone or whole-tone) by upper instruments and/or soprano voice is combined with 5 diatonic descending line by bass continuo. >
Dreadful sorry, what I meant here is, in the first appearance, a line of "Dis-E-A-Gis"(it should have been 5-tones of descend, not 5 notes of descend) in upper movement responded with 5 notes of diatonic.

Later, while soprano solo sings the line of half-tone ascend-5tones-descend-another either half or whole tone descend, other instruments, upper or lower, respond with 5 notes of diatonic. I like this combinataion.

Thérèse Hanquet wrote (December 1, 2008):
Introductions to BWV 30 and BWV 210

[To Ed Myskowski] Speaking of dances, I just found an interesting text about the tenor aria of BWV 30a / soprano aria of BWV 210 here:
Bach and the Story of an “Aria tempo di Polonaise” for Joachim Friedrich Flemming
http://www.americanbachsociety.org/Newsletters/BachNotes05.pdf
Note that I made an error in my presentation, in BWV 210 this aria is Mvt. 8 as Terejia indicates it, and not Mvt. 10 as I had written.

But on the other hand, Mvt. 10, also a very attractive piece, leaves me with a strange familiar feeling - is there also some parody involved?

Ed Myskowski wrote (December 1, 2008):
Thérèse Hanquet wrote:
>Speaking of dances, I just found an interesting text about the tenor aria of BWV 30a / soprano aria of BWV 210 here: Bach and the Story of an "Aria tempo di Polonaise" for Joachim Friedrich Flemming.<
EM:
First, a reminder to everyone that I am using very old hardware and software, I apologize for ignoring diacritical marks, apostrophes, etc. I do know how to use them in the real world, but this virtual stuff sometimes drives me bats! Up a wall! (ACEs)

Therese, I appreciate the follow-up on the dance theme, especially intoducing the neglected and/or misunderstood Polonaise (a personal favorite, as you may have guessed). I will try to access the reference, and add some comments if appropriate.

I find it wonderful, almost beyond words, that Therese from Belgium should be passing the leader job to Terejia from Japan, to conclude a multi-year chronologic survey of Bachs cantatas. With a pair of related works, at the transition. It is not possible to plan such a happy coincidence, but I would like to acknowledge Aryeh for recognizng and seizing the opportunity. Or perhaps it was just good luck?

I can assure both Theresas, and everyone else, that Blanche Honegger Moyse is smiling. In her 1971 recording, she took BWV 30/5 at 9:30, slower than slow. At that tempo, the contrast (if that was Bachs intent) is lost, with the following chorale. However, the slow tempo does have the advantage of deconstructing the very complex syncopated rhythm (including continuo), which Julian pointed us to (thanks as alway, Mate). Much more than a simple <dance>.

To my ears, in the ongoing process of grasping it, the Montreal Baroque pace and articulation sound best. I infer that is the tempo Rilling arrived at much earler, but I do not have the recording to confirm that.

Enough for now, many ongoing threads for further discussion. Special thanks to everyone who takes the trouble to write.

Jean Laaninen wrote (December 1, 2008):
[To Terjia] Welcome Terejia,

I am now in the process of going movement by movement in listening to this work (Rilling version). This is a cantata I have not approached before, as my trip through the cantatas stopped at about BWV 200 a few years back. There is another wedding cantata which I've heard live a number of times at ASU, but this cantata certainly exceeds the other in technical ability required by the soprano. In previous notes on this cantata someone had observed that each movement of this work seems to possess unique qualities, and I lend my opinion even with a first listening to this view point affirmatively.

If one is looking for a developmental challenge in cantata singing it would be perhaps a bit hard to find something that would exceed BWV 210, for the sheer variety required. However, Deurr suggests (p. 900) that a rich treatment is demanded of the singer to counteract the risk of monotony, but so far the instrumental variety to which Deurr notes assists the character of the music sounds delightful to me. Terejia's observations also support the variety found there.

I decided to read the Dürr commentary as I often do, and found the article very, very interesting. I began by reading the text in English, and was quite surprised by the turn from the wedding topic to music. Then, of course what is a wedding without music, and love might be said to be what inspires the heart to music. But Deurr points out that music was a 'first place' priority for the patron. Perhaps, though Dürr does not mention it, the patron could have also been a man of considerable musical talent. A line in Mvt. 7 asks, "What will your singing make of Satan's children?"--a very strange question, indeed. I can remember stories from my grandmother which involved the matter of whistling (flutey sounds) being a lure for the devil--an ancient suspicion from Sweden, in the late 1800s. It's hard to say exactly what the implications might have been in this setting.

Though clearly a secular work, the text goes on to say, "It is enough that heaven protects you When an enemy is aroused against you, Be of good cheer, patrons still live Who gladly dwell amidst your charm. And one such patron You shall now in fact Revere at his wedding feast. Well then, let your voice be heard!" (The voice of a singer (?), or more probably the voice of music itself (?). A rather curious text, but then the story continues with what the benefits of music will be to the patron and his well wishes conclude in a hymnic manner...which Deurr (p. 901) suggests to Deurr the high standard Bach had in mind for this work.

I find the light instrumentation in this cantata very appealing, and also see these choices as a matter of allowing the lighter voice a way to clearly penetrate the accompaniment with the message. One of these days I'm going to learn some, if not all of this work which has great charm for me.

Terejia wrote (December 1, 2008):
Thérèse Hanquet wrote:
http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/BachCantatas/message/29353
(..)
>
http://www.americanbachsociety.org/Newsletters/BachNotes05.pdf <
Thank you for this insightful article. I haven't read all the details from cover to cover. For me personally, music (and aethetic) is something that arose upward vector in us, be it a sacred or secular. Maybe sacred music is more diciplined.

In Japan, Catholic church hymn book has too much mundane sounding music even though the text is sacred. In my personal humble and extremely subjective opinion, such sacred songs are more vulgar than Bach's secular cantatas.

< Note that I made an error in my presentation, in BWV 210 this aria Mvt. 8 as Terejia indicates it, and not Mvt. 10 as I had written. But on the other hand, Mvt. 10, also a very attractive piece, leaves me with a strange familiar feeling - is there also some parody involved? >
Oh, I didn't even realize such a mistake. It was identifiable. Thank you for kindly taking time for this correction. Are they Sarabande, that we are talking about, I wonder?

Thérèse Hanquet wrote (December 1, 2008):
I totally agree with your statement hereunder.

I even read (but cannot remember where) that Bach wrote SDG (Soli Deo Gloria) on some scores of secular cantatas.

Terejia wrote:
< [...]
For me personally, music (and aethetic) is something that arose upward vector in us, be it a sacred or secular. Maybe sacred music is more diciplined.
In Japan, Catholic church hymn book has too much mundane sounding music even though the text is sacred. In my personal humble and extremely subjective opinion, such sacred songs are more vulgar than Bach's secular cantatas. >

Terejia wrote (December 1, 2008):
Jean Laaninen wrote:
http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/BachCantatas/message/29355
Thank you Jean, for your warm welcome and adding more insights f another perspective to this masterpiece.

< (..)
However, Deurr suggests (p. 900) that a rich > treatment is demanded of the singer to counteract the risk of monotony, but > so far the instrumental variety to which Deurr notes assists the character > of the music sounds delightful to me. <
Your statement here reminds me of such pieces as "Die Schöne Müllerin" by Schubert. No variety of instrumentation, only piano and one person throughout the entire piece. Even taking into consideration that piano has a wide range of expression, I still think it would be quite something for both pianist and the singer to avoid monotone.

< (..)
I find the light instrumentation in this cantata very appealing, >

I concur with you on this.

and also
< see these choices as a matter of allowing the lighter voice a way to clearly penetrate the accompaniment with the message. One of these days I'm going to learn some, if not all of this work which has great charm for me. >
Good luck on your ever sincere endeavor.

Terejia wrote (December 1, 2008):
Ed Myskowski wrote:
http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/BachCantatas/message/29354

I'm always very grateful for your nice comments.

(..)
> I can assure both Theresas, and everyone else, that Blanche Honegger Moyse is smiling. In her 1971 recording, she took BWV 30/5 at 9:30, slower than slow. At that tempo, the contrast (if that was Bachs intent) is lost, with the following chorale. However, the slow tempo does have the advantage of deconstructing the very complex syncopated rhythm (including continuo), which Julian pointed us to (thanks as alway, Mate). Much more than a simple <dance>.<
I don't know the recordings that you are talking about. I have Karl Richter's recordings to hand and the alto singer(I suppose it was Hamali, but I neglect checking CD, because it has some distance from this desk) doesn't have fast tempo. As to syncopated rhythm, I didn't realized that until Julian called our attention.

Terejia wrote (December 1, 2008):
One more additive to BWV 210 second movement

I've been wondering how come that the line "A-(6 tones upward)Fis-E (appoggiatura?)-D-Cis-H" sounds so familiar to my ear. Now I spotted why. There is almost identical line in Christmas Oratorio Part 4 opening chorus (or that of BWV213 ), except that the first leaping is 4 tones instead of 6 and the latter two are in F-dur while this piece is in A-dur. Elegantly sounding, aren't they?

Terejia wrote (December 1, 2008):
Thérèse Hanquet wrote:
< I totally agree with your statement hereunder. I even read (but cannot remember where) that Bach wrote SDG (Soli Deo Gloria) on some scores of secular cantatas. >
http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/BachCantatas/message/29357

Thank you, Therese. Interesting info.

For sure two of us agreed here(or even 99 out of 100 agreed) doesn't immediately makes it truth, but at least we could safely say that such a perspective that secular or sacred may well be a relative issue might have some valid point...

William Hoffman wrote (December 3, 2008):
Intros. to BWV 30 & 210 -- Fugitive Dance, Opera Notes

Thérèse Hanquet wrote:
< Speaking of dances, I just found an interesting text about the tenor aria of BWV 30a / soprano aria of BWV 210 here: Bach and the Story of an â?oAria tempo di Polonaiseâ? for Joachim Friedrich Flemming: http://www.americanbachsociety.org/Newsletters/BachNotes05.pdf >
William Hoffman replies:

So, all of the arias in BWV 30a are dance-related, and polonaise to boot, a dance-style honoring the King of Poland. All the arias of the soprano Cantata BWV 210 (Nos. 2,4,6,8) also appear to be dance-related. The Index to the book Dance Character in Bach's Vocal Music indicates, respectively, minuet, gigue, sarabande and bouree. However,I have access to the book here in Rochester NY at Sibley Library, Eastman School of Music, and will check it out Wednesday.

As for opera. The American Bach Society citation above, 2006 newsletter, begins with an extensive article by Hans Joachim Marx on Bach's Theatrical Style. We learn about Bach's possibly first-hand encounters with opera in Hamburg and Dresden, as well as some of the important links with his secular cantatas. I am convinced, IMHO, that Bach's encounter with opera is decisive and also has a strong link to Handel, if we're willing to go there. It's no coincidence that Bach was near Hamburg in January 1706 when Handel's first opera, Almira, was produced by Keiser. Whittaker tries to show a direct link. Also, there's that wonderful instrumental sarabande that found its way into later Handel Italian operas, including Rinaldo, "La'schio...." (sp.).

Sadly, Bach's encounter with opera was an example of his being, to use the American expression, "a day late and a dollar short," at Eisenach, Weimar, Koethen, and Leipzig. By the time he got there to work at those communities, the local opera had folded, according to Wolff and Geck. Of course, it had a lot to do with the passing fancy of opera and the in ability to sustain a German form of the genre, which means "work" (singular) until a fella named Gluck came along. Gluck,incidentally, visited Leipzig for several months with the traveling Italian troupe ca.1748, so he must have met old Bach. Another irony was the failure of opera in England,around 1734,I think with the Beggar's Opera, which influenced singspiel. And then there's Bach's"theatrical" St.Matthew Passion," his greatest opera.And, I apologize for my spellingand not checking the BCW opera discussions in depth. Mea maxima culpa.

Ed Myskowski wrote (December 3, 2008):
BWV 30 and 210

Thérèse Hanquet wrote:
< Speaking of dances, I just found an interesting text about the tenor aria of BWV 30a / soprano aria of BWV 210 here: Bach and the Story of an â?oAria tempo di Polonaiseâ? for Joachim Friedrich Flemming: http://www.americanbachsociety.org/Newsletters/BachNotes05.pdf >
William Hoffman replies:
> So,all of the arias in BWV 30a are dance-related, and polonaise to boot, a dance-style honoring the King of Poland. All the arias of the soprano Cantata BWV 210 (Nos. 2,4,6,8) also appear to be dance-related. The Index to the book Dance Character in Bach's Vocal Music indicates, respectively, minuet, gigue, sarabande and bouree.<
Ed Myskowski adds (hope the thread is clear);
I am a bit lost. From Therese/s original reference, I found my way to <The Newsletter of the American Bach Society>, including the lead article <Bach and Theatralischer Stil> (Hans Joachim Marx), and a reference (but not the text) to a presentation at the biennial meeting of ABS (Leipzig, Germany, May 11-13, 2006), by Szymon Paczkowski (Bach and the Story ..., as cited by Therese).

Questions:

(1) Is the text of Paczkowski/s presentation published?

(2) What is the source of the suggestion that all of the arias in BWV 30a are polonaise related?

(3) What is the support for the statement that the polonaise is <a dance style honoring the King of Poland>? Little and Jenne, p. 194, for example, re the polonaise:
<Polish dances appeared in European music at least two hundred years earlier [before Chopin], attested to by pieces entitled <polnischer Tanz> and <polacca> in several late sixteenth-century keyboard tablatures.> [end quote]

Now (2008) we (USA) have a polka, the Texas Two Step (Bush twice?), via Mexico. You can look it up.

Neil Halliday wrote (December 3, 2008):
Ed Myskowski wrote:
> What is the source of the suggestion that all of the arias in BWV 30a are polonaise related?<
Hi Ed, did someone suggest that? (If they did I missed it).

The polonaise movement is the tenor aria in BWV 30a, and Mvt. 8 (for soprano) in BWV 210.

Yes, one can hear the rhythm of, say, Chopin's Military Polonaise, in this aria; prominent are the dotted rhythm on the first of the three beats, in the slowish 3/4 time.

I'm attracted tthe unusual harmony at the start of the aria: a minor chord followed by the major chord a whole-tone lower.

Neil Halliday wrote (December 3, 2008):
Neil Halliday wrote:
>I'm attracted to the unusual harmony at the start of the aria: a minor chord followed by the major chord a whole-tone lower.<
Er, that should be "a whole tone above" (without discussing chord positions).

Terejia wrote (December 3, 2008):
Ed Myskowski wrote:
http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/BachCantatas/message/29364
<< Friedrich Flemming: http://www.americanbachsociety.org/Newsletters/BachNotes05.pdf >>
< (1) Is the text of Paczkowski/s presentation published?
(2) What is the source of the suggestion that all of the arias in BWV 30a are polonaise related?
(3) What is the support for the statement that the polonaise is <a dance style honoring the King of Poland>? Little and Jenne, p. 194, for example, re the polonaise: <Polish dances appeared in European music at least two hundred years earlier [before Chopin], attested to by pieces entitled <polnischer Tanz> and <polacca> in several late sixteenth-century keyboard tablatures. [end quote] >
As for myself, I still fail to perceive polonaise both in BWV 30a and BWV 210 Mvt. 8. I had so firmly convinced that BWV210 Mvt. 8 and the corresponding tenor aria in 30a were sarabande...pardon me for my gross ignorance.

Terejia wrote (December 3, 2008):
William Hoffman wrote:
http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/BachCantatas/message/29363
Thank you, William, for contributing some historical angles to this discussion.

Next week's discussion would involve the issue Bach and Opera (Theatrical music), I suppose.

Thérèse Hanquet wrote (December 3, 2008):
Ed Myskowski wrote:
< Questions:
(1) Is the text of Paczkowski/s presentation published? >
About your question 1): it seems so: http://homepages.bw.edu/bachbib/script/bach2.pl?23=24742
But I do not know how to access it...

William Hoffman wrote (December 3, 2008):
[To Ed Myskowski] William Hoffman replies: The article is on the top of Page 11, starting on the left column. As to the Polonaise reference try Finke-Hecklinger's definitive book on Dance Character in (Bach's) Vocal Music, p. 57; Geo. Stauffer's Artist in Society-- Late Baroque, and Bach's Changing World. Unfortunately, I don't have these books with me, there at home.

As for the Texas two-step, try the line dance or the hookie-pokie.

Thérèse Hanquet wrote (December 3, 2008):
Found it - sort of...
Here the first page:
http://www.bw.edu/academics/libraries/bach/journal/toc/PagePaczkowski.pdf

Ed Myskowski wrote (December 4, 2008):
Thanks to William and Therese for setting me straight on the availability of Paczkowski/s abstract, which is in fact available in the American Bach Society Notes cited (I had overlooked it). As Therese reported, the full text, with references, appears to be available elsewhere, but difficult of access (or perhaps a damaged file?). I also came across a reference to Bach Network UK (BNUK, not bunk): http://www.bachnetwork.co.uk/ub2/editorial.pdf

which suggests ongoing research by Paczkowski on the <much-neglected Polonaise> and related topics. Sorry, I tried to extract a brief quote, but could not manage it. The site should be easy of access for those interested, if I could do it.

Terejia wrote (December 4, 2008):
Neil Halliday wrote:
>>I'm attracted to the unusual harmony at the start of the aria: a minor chord followed by the major chord a whole-tone lower.<<
<< Er, that should be "a whole tone above" (without discussing chord positions). >
http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/BachCantatas/message/29365
http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/BachCantatas/message/29366

[To Neil Halliday] http://www.bach-cantatas.com/BGA/BWV210-BGA.pdf

Do you mean 5th section?

It took me quite a while to make sense of what you are pointing out about harmony and on-going discussion by Therese, Ed and William on Polonaise. Now Neil's post made me looking at the score more closely, which accidentally gave me an understanding about Polonaise.

Many thanks to Neil, Therese, Ed and William for leading me to examine music closer!

Neil Halliday wrote (December 4, 2008):
Terejia wrote:
>Do you mean 5th section?<
In the continuo of first bar of the Mvt. 8 of BWV 210 (the polonaise movement), we have notes of the F# minor chord (C#,F#,A), followed in the second bar by notes, in the continuo, of the G# major chord (B#,G#), which is a bit unusual for the beginning of music that is in C# minor. I like the effect.

William Hoffman wrote (December 4, 2008):
Ed Myskowski wrote:
< Thanks to William and Therese for setting me straight on the availability of Paczkowski/s abstract, which is in fact available in the American Bach Society Notes cited (I had overlooked it). As Therese reported, the full text, with references, appears to be available elsewhere, but difficult of access (or perhaps a damaged file?). I also came across a reference to Bach Network UK (BNUK, not bunk): http://www.bachnetwork.co.uk/ub2/editorial.pdf
which suggests ongoing research by Paczkowski on the <much-neglected Polonaise> and related topics. Sorry, I tried to extract a brief quote, but could not manage it. The site should be easy of access for those interested, if I could do it. >
William Hoffman replies: The Paczkowski reference is to the Riemenschneider article in BACH publication; only the first page is available. You have to get the publication or connect with the author. He also did a paper for the 2008 ABS meeting, Szymon Paczkowski (Warsaw University), "Sound-Encoded Politics: J. S. Bach's Cantata Tönet, ihr Pauken (BWV 214)," which I quoted in the recent discussion. He's very much into the Polish connection, especially the Dresden Royal Court and its Polish claims and all its political machinations, especially with von Flemming's successor, Count von Bruehl. It's amazing that all August the Strong had to do was renounce his Catholicism (and keep the Lutheran regions happy), with Prime Minister Joachim von Flemming's help. Too bad the English line of succession couldn't do the same ca. 1712. Poor Handel wouldn't have had to return to Hamburg or Venice. Timing is everything.

Ed Myskowski wrote (December 5, 2008):
From Therese and Terejia:
Terese wrote:
> Note that I made an error in my presentation, in BWV 210 this aria is Mvt. 8 as Terejia indicates it, and not Mvt. 10 as I had written. But on the other hand, Mvt. 10, also a very attractive piece, leaves me with a strange familiar feeling - is there also some parody involved? <
Terejia wrote:
< Oh, I didn't even realize such a mistake. It was identifiable. Thank you for kindly taking time for this correction. Are they Sarabande, that we are talking about, I wonder? >
From William Hoffman:
>So, all of the arias in BWV 30a are dance-related, and polonaise to boot, a dance-style honoring the King of Poland. All the arias of the soprano Cantata BWV 210 (Nos. 2,4,6,8) also appear to be dance-related. The Index to the book Dance Character in Bach's Vocal Music indicates, respectively, minuet, gigue, sarabande and bouree.<
Ed Myskowski adds:
I hope the extracts from our thread are clear, I have found it instructive and enjoyable, as Terejia also mentioned. So instr, that I would like to clarify some details for my own Ed-ification.

(1) I believe Will may have overlooked one of the five movements (?); the fourth aria (BWV 210/Mvt. 8) would in fact be the sarabande in the Fincke-Hecklinger analysis, but I am judging from a secondary source,

(2) Little and Jenne (p. 244) specifically note BWV 210/Mvt. 8 as an <implied> sarabande, but go on to cite F-H: <A Polish influence may also be at work ... the dotted rhythms and groups of four 16th notes which accent certain beats, e.g., measures 2 and 4, indicate the rhythm of the mazurka, a variant of the polonaise.>

I am still working on my Texas two-step, with more vigor than accuracy.

Terejia wrote (December 5, 2008):
About dance rhythms Re: BWV 30 and 210

Thank you, Ed, for being as gracious as you usually are. More replies in between.

Ed Myskowski wrote:
http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/BachCantatas/message/29379
(..)
>> (1) I believe Will may have overlooked one of the five movements (?); the fourth aria (BWV 210/Mvt. 8) would in fact be the sarabande in the Fincke-Hecklinger analysis, but I am judging from a secondary source,<<
I'm glad I was not too much off-the-wall in believing that the arias on the issue are sarabande :-))

>> (2) Little and Jenne (p. 244) specifically note BWV 210/8 as an <implied> sarabande, but go on to cite F-H: A Polish influence may also be at work ... the dotted rhythms and groups of four 16th notes which accent certain beats, e.g., measures 2 and 4, indicate the rhythm of the mazurka, a variant of the polonaise.>>
And it was not until I examined 5th section that I finally could make sense of polonaise.

By the way, as to legal practices, it is often the case that we have more than one correct/right answers. I don't know if such would also be the case in music analysis...

< I am still working on my Texas two-step, with more vigor than accuracy.>
(getting OT)
Good luck with your Texas dance.

Now speaking of dance, I suspect Western people and Oriental people might have different idea on dance. From overall mood of discussion, I felt in Western world dance may not be considered as holy or sacred as it is in Eastern world. In Eastern world, dance is as sacred, say, as organ prelude or cantata after the sermon in Christian
churches, in Buddhism or Shintoism temple. For sure, these sacred dances are not minuete nor sarabande, but almost without rhythm and very solemn.

Terejia wrote (December 5, 2008):
About the harmony of two arias that BWV 30 and 210 have in common

Neil Halliday wrote:
http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/BachCantatas/message/29375
< In the continuo of first bar of the Mvt. 8 of BWV 210 (the polonaise movement), we have notes of the F# minor chord (C#,F#,A), followed in the second bar by notes, in the continuo, of the G# major chord (B#,G#), which is a bit unusual for the beginning of music that is in C# minor. I like the effect. >
Thank you for this clarification. I finally understand what you are referring to.

However, I still fail to see how that would make music unusual. To my ears, which probably have not heard even 1/10 as much Bach as you have, the musical flow feels so natural in the beginning. Would it be "usual" if the chord once moved to C# E G# before abruptly moving into G# major chord?

In anycase, I concur with you that this harmony transition-or two independent sections combined together-has great aethetic impact.

William Hoffman wrote (December 5, 2008):
Cantatas BWV 30, 210; Polonaise, More History

I have both the Finke-Hecklinger book and the Paczkowski BACH article.

As to dance-related movements, the first source, published in 1970 as Tuebingen Bach Studies, cites BWV 210(a) arias as follows: 2, menuett; 4, pastorale; 6, no finding (?sarabande); 8. polonaise. As for BWV 30(a): 1, lombard; 3, menuett-giga; 5, gavotte; 8(7), "lombardischen Geschmack"; 10(9),giga; (11) polonaise

Now to the "Aria tempo di Polonaise" (pp.64-98), Paczkowski asks: Why such a polonaise aria? His answers (p.98): Joachim Friedrich von Flemming's close ties with the Royal Polish court in Desden; polonaise was "immensely fashionable in Saxony" (ref. Sperontes famous collection <Singende Muse an der Pleisse>, 1736, in which sung polonaises make up about a third of the collection," p.80); with the trappings of power and ceremony; also brother Jakob Heinrich, who twice married Polish women and was the architect of August's conversion to Catholicism to secure the Polish throne. "Finally, the polonaise in general dovetailed with the most recent musical tastes in courtly and aristocratic circles. It was a <galant> dance and as such it made a perfect choice for Bach's laudatory cantatas aimed at aristocratic patrons."

Paczkowski's thesis summary (p.98): "Assuming that the lost Bach cantata (which served as the original source or intermediary link for cantatas BWV210a, 210, and 30a) was composed for Flemming a valid inference -- the title of Picander's aria "Grosser Flemming" from his <Adendmusik> for 1 January 1725 ("Aria tempo di Polonaise") must have been an important suggestion to Bach in composing his own aria."

Other fugitive thoughts from Paczowski:

*Picander's abiding connection to the Dresden Court, from the J.F. von Flemming four poems & librettos (1724-25) to the libretto for another Wiederau dramma per musica in 1751.

*Bach's extensive use of polonaise rhythms in his drammi per musica: BWV 212/4,6,10,12; 205/13; 216/7;249a/5; 214/3; 201/13; 210(a)/8; and 30a/11.

*Dating of BWV 210 (extant wedding version), "O holder Tag," to19 September 1741in Berlin -- another out-of-town performance -- for Georg Ernst Stahl, Bachs' friend and Prussian court member, to Joanna Elisabeth Schrader (daughter of a Berlin pharmacist).

*J.C. von Hennicke in 1738 commissioned Cantata BWV Anh. 13 for a visit of the Dresden Royal Court, performed on May 19, all music lost, supposedly Bach's most progressive work, Gottsched text survives. Old J.C. was quite a psychophant!

Thérèse Hanquet wrote (December 5, 2008):
[To William Hoffman] All this is very interesting!

Do you have some details about this other "Wiederau dramma per musica" of 1751?

Apparently J.-C. von Hennicke died in June 1752, aged 60 (this is not THAT old... ;-))

Thanks to you I learned the meaning of "psychophant", never heard before!

William Hoffman wrote (December 5, 2008):
Thérèse Hanquet wrote:
< All this is very interesting!
Do you have some details about this other "Wiederau dramma per musica" of 1751? Apparently J.-C. von Hennicke died in June 1752, aged 60 (this is not THAT old... ;-)) >
William Hoffman replies: Footnote 51(p.86): "As Neumann notes(NBA KB 39,75), eight years later (than 1737,i.e. 1744, not 1751), Picander renewed his poetic homage to his Wiederau patron with a four-stanza poem 'Auf die Erhebung In des Reichs Grafem-Stand Sr. Exc. Herrn J.S.v.H.' in <Picanders neu herausgegebene Ernst-Scherzhafte und Satyrische Gedichte>, Part V, Leipzig 1751, 350. In his catalogue of Picander's poetic cantatas, Klaus Haefner includes the libretto of this <dramma per musica> as P 124; see also K. Haefner, <Aspekte des Parodieverfahren bei Johann Sebastian Bach>, 41."

Thus, the second Wiederau tribute came in 1744, not 1751 (Picander publication date) and could have been set by Bach. By 1744, however, Sebastian's interests had shifted to C.P.E.'s employer at the Prussian Court, especially after the death of Count Joachim Friedrich von Flemming,12 October 1740.

In Footnote 50, Paczkowski writes: As financial abuses escalated in tandem with Saxony's deteriorating economic situation in the 1740s, Hennicke increasingly came to be regarded as the malign influence in Bruehl's government. (See also Jacek Straszewski,<August III Sas> [August III, the Saxon], Zaklad Naradowy im. Ossolinskich, Wrocklaw 1989, p.215)." The beginning of Footnote 50 that Hennicke died on 8 June 1752 in Dresden.

I am amazed at the intrigues involving the Dresden Court representatives in Leipzig, beginning with Marianne von Ziegler's father, Mayor Conrad Romanus, who overstepped his authority ca. 1708 and was imprisoned (house arrest?) for sedition and ?misuse of funds, until his death in the ?1740s, as well as that dastardly Hennicke and that villainous Count Bruehl. They are the stuff of great melodrama. (I just bought <Bach's Changing World>.)

Ed Myskowski wrote (December 5, 2008):
Introduction to BWV 210

Terejia wrote:
>In general, we can enjoy joyous atmosphere and gracefulness in the music. Your turn for sharing your joys on BWV 210!<
I find that invitation irrestible. I have developed a fondness for soprano Mia Zadori with Pal Nemeth, a recording I first encountered a couple years ago when we discussed (with vigor!) BWV 202. I have also developed a fondness for Pal Nemeth, baroque traverso. I hope to have time to elaborate before the week is out, but I feel Terejia deserves some support for her efforts. Very fine writing!

Terejia wrote (December 5, 2008):
Ed Myskowski wrote:
http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/BachCantatas/message/29381
(..)
>I have developed a fondness for soprano Mia Zadori with Pal Nemeth, a recording I first encountered a couple years ago when we discussed (with vigor!) BWV 202. <
BWV 202 is another beautiful wedding cantata.

I know neither Pa Nemeth nor Mia Zadori, but I found about Pal Nemeth here
http://www.deezer.com/#music/result/all/pal%20nemeth
and listening to Haydon by Pal Nemeth now. Thank you for your info. In Japan, not so many recordings are available and obtaining Bach recordings have much obstacles. Web music is very helpful for me!

Although I believe most of the members have large CD collections, I gave a link considering that there may well be some members like myself for whom the info might be of help.

< I have also developed a fondness for Pal Nemeth, baroque traverso. I hope to have time to elaborate before the week is out, but I feel Terejia deserves some support for her efforts. Very fine writing! >
Such a support is very much appreciated.

Terejia wrote (December 5, 2008):
More on BWV 210

We indeed have had very fruitful and insightful discussion on Mvt. 8. Many thanks for those contributing to this discussion!!!

Now, before the end of the week, I'd like to ask : any comments on other movements from BWV 210 (or more comments on Mvt. 8) that any of you wish to share with ?

 

Continue on Part 3

Cantatas BWV 210 & BWV 210a: Details & Complete Recordings of BWV 210 | Recordings of Individual Movements from BWV 210 | Details of BWV 210a | Discussions: Part 1 | Part 2 | Part 3

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