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Bach Family
Discussion - Part 3

Continue from Part 2

JEG and SDG to release a new CD of Johann Christoph Bach music

Kim Patrick Clow wrote (September 23, 2009):
On April 16, 2009 at Cadagon Hall, JEG and his ensemble gave a concert of music by Johann Christoph Bach (1642 - 1703), who was Bach's first cousin once removed. There were several funeral related cantatas performed along with a wedding piece. This was recorded live, and will be released on the SDG label. This concert was given a fantastic write up in Early Music Review, a FANTASTIC resources of CD, concerts, choral society concerts/events, and new scholarly edition reviews-- all put together by Clifford Bartlett, a Handel specialist who is a mover and shaker in early music circles in the United Kingdom. I really can't say enough good things about this publication, it makes any other magazine about early music/ classical music look absolutely anemic. You can see some extracts online at http://www.kings-music.co.uk/emr.htm. The next issue will feature many reviews of J.S. Bach recordings.

 

W. F. BACH 300

Michael Cox wrote (November 22, 2010):
Wilhelm Friedemann Bach

300 today

Born: November 22, 1710 - Weimar, Thuringia, Germany
Died: July 1, 1784 - Berlin, Germany

"Wilhelm Friedemann Bach was the eldest, and by common repute the most gifted son, of J.S. Bach; a famous organist, a famous improvisor, and a complete master of counterpoint." (http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Lib/Bach-Wilhelm-Friedemann.htm)

In his novel Friedemann Bach (1857, later edition Leipzig 1909) A. E. Brachvogel describes imaginary conversations between Johann Sebastian and his eldest son Wilhelm Friedemann. (I picked up this book in a church in Leipzig for just one euro!)

In one scene father says to son that he, the son, had only heard good music in his father's house, but that when they arrived in Dresden they would hear only "murderously bad music" (mordschlechte Musik). In Dresden Friedemann would hear "no intelligent music" (keine gescheite Musik).

Does this sound like something that Bach would have said to his son in real life?

Had Schütz been totally forgotten in Dresden? Surely Bach was aware of his existence.

One commentator writes: "Schütz was ...unquestionably, the most talented German composer of his century...Oddly, although he lived until just over a decade before Bach's birth despite being almost exactly 100 years older, Schütz had next to no influence on Bach." http://studhalter.blogspot.com/2008/12/schtz-geistliche-chormusik-1648.html

Another commentator, by contrast, speaks of the "large influence" of Schütz on later German music, including Bach - and we might add today, his son W. F. Bach.

"Schütz was of great importance in bringing new musical ideas to Germany from Italy, and as such had a large influence on the German music which was to follow. The style of the north German organ school derives largely from Schütz ...; a century later this music was to culminate in the work of J.S. Bach." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinrich_Schütz)

Adolph Bach (no relation) mentions that Schütz was influential in introducing into German musical language such Italian terms as Adagio, Allegro, Andante, Solo, Arie, and Violoncello.

(A. Bach, Geschichte der Deutschen Sprache (1938; 6th edition, Heidelberg 1956, p. 235).

This book is a very useful and informative one. It was first published during the Nazi period but was reprinted unchanged as late as 1956. It is heartrending to read the accounts of the Judeo-German spoken by hundreds of thousands of Yiddish-speakers who were still alive in 1938 when the book was first published but later perished in the Holocaust. It is odd and insensitive that a university textbook should not be updated after such a harrowing and traumatic period as the Second World War.

Watch this old film: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XCmvZzUbnr0&feature=related

And listen to this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gs2zBomTR_Q&feature=related

Douglas Cowling wrote (November 22, 2010):
Michael Cox wrote:
< Watch this old film: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XCmvZzUbnr0&feature=related >
This clip from the 1941 film "Friedemann Bach" is fascinating. Sebastian's "duel" with Marchand is reworked as a contest with Friedemann. Given the date of the film, one wonders if this is an allegory of the German defeat of
France.

 

Bach & Carl: Latin Music, German Tradition: 1750-1800

William Hoffman wrote (July 6, 2011):
Bach's Latin Music, His Vocal Music, and Music of Other Composers, 1750-1800

Bach's second oldest son, Carl Philipp Emanuel, was most responsible for preserving his father's music, including music of the Bach Family and Latin Church Music of other composersl, as well as church music annual cycles and other sacred music of his father's colleagues.

Latin Music

Christoph Wolff, "Preface" (English translation, Edward Olleson), Antonio Caldara <Magnificat in C Major>, edited by Christoph Wolff (Kassel, New York, Bärenreiter, No. 3518; 1969); M2020 C25 M3.

Besides the Caldara <Magnificat>, Latin vocal music works "were not added to Bach music library merely to be studied but also to be performed, including:
J. Baal - Missa in A*
J. L. and J. N. Bach - Mass in C*, Mass in e*
G. B. Bassini [6 Masses in parts]
C. Bernhardt [2 Masses in scores]
J. C. Kerll - Missa Superba
A. Lotti [Sanctus in score and parts]
G. P. da Palestrina [Mass in parts]
M. G. Peranda [Kyrie in parts]
J. C. Pez -- Missa San Lamberti*
J. C. Schmidt [Mass in score]
J. H. Wilderer [Mass in score and parts]

* BCW: http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Other/Work-Perform.htm .
[music] See below, C.P.E. Bach Estate Catalog 1790.

"After Bach's death, the major part of this library passed on to his son Carl Philipp Emanuel." The Estate Catalog 1790 includes both music C.P.E. Bach composed and collected as well as earlier music of his father (pp. 68-81) and the Latin music (pp. 87-88]. The J. S. Bach's manuscript score of Caldara's <Magnificat> in score with the <Suscipe Israel> original insert is listed on Page 88.

C.P.E. Bach's Estate Catalog (1990)

The catalog begins with C.P.E. Bach's music; followed by his father's; brothers [Pages 82-83] Wilhelm Friedemann, Johann Christoph Friedrich, Johann Christian, and Johann Bernard; Music of the Bach Family (Altbachisches Archiv) from his father [ Pages 83-85] (The J. L. Bach 18 cantatas were bound separately)]

Then annual cycles of church music probably collected by C. P. E. are listed, beginning with Georg Benda (1); Telemann (4) [Page 86], Stözel (3), Fasch (1) and Forster (1`) [Page 87]. The last three composers cycles contain missing works primarily for late Epiphany and various Trinity Time Sundays, the catalog notes.

Then Latin Music is listed from his father [see above list, Page 87] followed by two Masses of Zelenka in score, one Mass of Hasse in score, one Kyrie of J. G. Graun in parts; one Mass of Benda in score, one Matthew Passion of Keiser, a Passion-Cantata of Hiller, the Brockes Passion of Telemann in score, a Passion oC. H. Graun in score, a Matthew Passion of Telemann in score and parts, Telemann's 1763 Passion in score, Telemann's <Seliges Erwägen> Passion in score and parts [Page 88],

More church music inherited from his father is found on Page 88: Caldara's <Magnificat> in score, Lotti [see above], the Sebastian Knüpfer motet "Erforsche mich, Gott" in score and parts, 16 Ricercari von Girolamo, Frescobaldi, as well as church music of C. H. Graun, Telemann, Sellius, Hasse, Baron von Grotthuz, and chorales of Altnikol and Johann Gottfried Bach.

Ten church works of Benda are found on Page 89, followed by five church works of Fasch, and 18 church works of C. H. Graun (Pages 89-90). Page 91 lists Easter Music ("I know that my redeemer liveth" and the "Hallalujah" chorus ) from Handel's Messiah, which C. P. E. conducted in a benefit concert in late March 1786, along with his arrangement of the <Credo> from his father's <Mass in B Minor>, and three of his own works after intermission: a symphony, <Magnificat> and famous setting of <Heilig> (Sanctus).

Bach's Music Performed: 1750-1800

The most important study of the performance of Bach's music from 1750 to 1800 remains Gerhard Herz, "JSB in the Age of Rationalism and Early Romanticism" (1935 dissertation in German), in <Essays on J. S. Bach> (Ann Arbor MI: UMI Research Press, 1985). Herz found that some 45 Bach works were performed, primarily cantatas by sons Carl and Friedemann, but also by Carl: the <Credo> as well as music from the St. Matthew and St. John Passions and Christmas Orartorio. Motets and chorales were performed by the Thomas Choir in Leipzig under Bach student and successor Friedrich Doles. As many as three Passions once attributed to Bach may have been performed: "Farlau's SMP copy (c.1756) was one of three presumed Bach Passions performed in Leipzig by Kantor Friedrich Doles, as recalled later by student Johann Friedrich Rochlitz. The other two "Bach" Passions in Doles' possession were copies of the apocryphal St. Luke Passion, BWV 246, and the Passion oratorio, "Jesu, deine Passion," later attributed to Weimar capellmeister Ernst Wilhelm Wolf (1735-1792) [Thomas Braatz, BCW Article: "Early Performances of Bach's SMP", BCW: http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Articles/SMPDaten.htm .

Other important studies of Bach's music from 1750 to 1800 include: Karl Geiringer, <The Bach Family>(1954); <The New Grove Bach Family>, ed. Christoph Wolff (1983); and B. F. Richter, "The Destiny of the Cantatas of JSB Belonging to the Thomas School in Leipzig" (<Bach Jahrbuch> 1906).

William Hoffman wrote (July 6, 2011):
Much of Bach's music was presented by son's Friedemann and Carl, who generally observed the following practices:

1. They did not present church cantatas on all Sundays and feast days.

2. They did not always present their father's works only on the occasions for which they originally were written.

3. They parodied a few of their father's works, using new texts, making arrangements or pastiches.

4. They did not complete their own<Jahrgange, or annual church cantata cycles; instead they presented works from other composers' <Jahrgange> in their music libraries, fashioned pastiches, or presented original music.

From thesis draft, "Early Bach Reception History: Music Transmission Before 1750," (1994), 22 pages with bibliography.

Ed Myskowski wrote (July 7, 2011):
William Hoffman wrote:
< Bach's second oldest son, Carl Philipp Emanuel, was most responsible for preserving his father's music, including music of the Bach Family and Latin Church Music of other composersl, >as well as church music annual cycles and other sacred music of his father's colleagues. >
Thanks for the details, as well as the *headline*, re preservation of JSB church works.

Evan Cortens wrote (July 7, 2011):
William Hoffman wrote:
< Much of Bach's music was presented by son's Friedemann and Carl, who generally observed the following practices:
1. They did not present church cantatas on all Sundays and feast days.
3. They parodied a few of their father's works, using new texts, making arrangements or pastiches. >
Thanks for your interesting posts on the provenance of Bach sources! I do have a question about your point 1 below as specifically regards C.P.E. Bach. It's my understanding, derived especially from Reginald Sanders's excellent dissertation on the topic, that CPEB was required to present church cantatas on all Sundays and feast days during his time in Hamburg (1768-1788). Does your comment, perhaps, refer to his time in Berlin, when he wasn't employed as a church musician?

Also, as regards point 3, I'm not familiar with any examples of CPEB parodying his father's works (i.e., the use of a new text with old music). He does, for instance, reuse bits of JSB's SMP in his 1769 Matthew passion, but with their original texts. (I.e., an example of pastiche.) That said, this is just off the top of my head...

Evan Cortens wrote (July 7, 2011):
William Hoffman wrote:
< C.P.E. Bach's Estate Catalog (1990)
The catalog begins with
C.P.E. Bach's music; followed by his father's; brothers [Pages 82-83] Wilhelm Friedemann, Johann Christoph Friedrich, Johann Christian, and Johann Bernard; Music of the Bach Family (Altbachisches Archiv) from his father [ Pages 83-85] (The J. L. Bach 18 cantatas were bound separately)]
Then annual cycles of church music probably collected by C. P. E. are listed, beginning with Georg Benda (1); Telemann (4) [Page 86], Stözel (3), Fasch (1) and Forster (1`) [Page 87]. The last three composers cycles contain missing works primarily for late Epiphany and various Trinity Time Sundays, the catalog notes.
Then Latin Music is listed from his father [see above list, Page 87] followed by two Masses of Zelenka in score, one Mass of Hasse in score, one Kyrie of J. G. Graun in parts; one Mass of Benda in score, one Matthew Passion of Keiser, a Passion-Cantata of Hiller, the Brockes Passion of Telemann in score, a Passion of C. H. Graun in score, a Matthew Passion of Telemann in score and parts, Telemann's 1763 Passion in score, Telemann's <Seliges Erwägen> Passion in score and parts [Page 88],
More church music inherited from his father is found on Page 88: Caldara's <Magnificat> in score, Lotti [see above], the Sebastian Knüpfer motet "Erforsche mich, Gott" in score and parts, 16 Ricercari von Girolamo, Frescobaldi, as well as church music of C. H. Graun, Telemann, Sellius, Hasse, Baron von Grotthuz, and chorales of Altnikol and Johann Gottfried Bach.
Ten church works of Benda are found on Page 89, followed by five church works of Fasch, and 18 church works of C. H. Graun (Pages 89-90). Page 91 lists Easter Music ("I know that my redeemer liveth" and the "Hallalujah" chorus ) from
Handel's Messiah, which C. P. E. conducted in a benefit concert in late March 1786, along with his arrangement of the <Credo> from his father's <Mass in B Minor>, and three of his own works after intermission: a symphony, <Magnificat> and famous setting of <Heilig> (Sanctus). >
Apologies for the separate email, I should have noted this along with my other response. For those interested in which works (by other composers, and by himself) C.P.E. Bach was performing in Hamburg, including the works of Benda, Forster, etc, the best source on this is Reginald Sanders's dissertation. In a length appendix, he gives every occasion during Bach's 20+ year tenure for which he had to provide music, and lists, when known, which piece(s) was/were performed.

It's really a great read, and highly recommended for anyone interested the day to day running of an office very similar to JSB's in Leipzig, but with much more extant documentation.

One very tiny point of clarification. The "Heilig" presented at the 1786 benefit concert was the one for two choirs (Wq 217/H 778), not the much smaller version for single choir (Wq 218/H 827). While I'm rambling, it's worth noting as well that the version of CPEB's Magnificat presented in 1786 differed in significant ways (e.g., addition of trumpets, replacement of "Et misericordia" movement) from the version written in 1749 (for CPEB's audition for the Leipzig job). The currently available modern editions of this work are a real mess, and thus the few recordings of this work are too. A new edition, edited by Christine Blanken, is in preparation by the C.P.E. Bach: Complete Works folks. It'll be in two volumes: a Berlin version, and a Hamburg version.

William Hoffman wrote (July 7, 2011):
[To Evan Cortens] As to Carl's cantata performances in Hamburg, 1768-88, Eugene Helm in the CPEB section (9) of <The New Grove Bach Family> (1983: 265) says that for the 200 musical performances yearly in the five churches, "Like his predecessor Telemann, he naturally sought suitable music wherever he could find it to supplement his own compositions, often manufacturing 'inaugural music' here or a Passion there out of bits and pieces of his own and others' works." I don't know if Telemann did pastiches but he repeated cycles and also recycled whole or parts of annual cycles simultaneously among the churches of Erfurt and Frankfurt (1722-1730). I also note that Carl's estate included 10 annual cycles: Georg Benda (1); Telemann (4) [Page 86], Stözel (3), Fasch (1) and Forster (1), noting all three Stözel cycles missing mostly cantatas for omne tempore periods of late Epiphany and throughout Trinity. The Telemann cycles included the "Angel", "Lingisch" and "Nuernberg" years but no description of the Stözel cycles like the "Saitenspiel" that Dad probably partially performed (1734/35), Trinity +13-18.

As for Carl doing parodies, most were done by Friedemann (like Cantata 80 in Latin!), altho Carl did extensive revisions of Cantatas 102, ?25, and ?30 and may have done German contrafactions (Luther) of Dad's Kyrie-Gloria Missae, BWV 233 and 235.

Evan Cortens wrote (July 7, 2011):
[To William Hoffman] Thanks for clearing this up for me! It sounds like a better way to say your point one, for CPEB at least, would be "did not present original church cantatas on all Sundays and feast days." Am I understanding you correctly?

Though some of the models for CPEB's pastiches have been identified—I mentioned the use of JSB's SMP, but the Mark passions also reuse Homilius, for instance--there remains much more work to be done in this department. I think part of the issue is that oftentimes CPEB is reusing music that is unknown today, whether because it's lost, or simply forgotten.

William Hoffman wrote (July 8, 2011):
[To Evan Cortens] Friedemann in Halle (?1748-56) was responsible only for original cantatas on feast days. David Schulenberg has a new bio, <The Music of W. F. Bach (Univ. of Rochester), 2010. While he does cover Freddy's music, especially for keyboard, he has very little to say about Freddy's treatment of his Dad's Music. There is a Daniel Melamed article (?Bach Perspectives) much better, and I don't think Schulenberg cited this in his biography. His college text on Baroque Music is excellent and costly $100 each for text and printed music but scanty on listening examples except keyboard. Schulenberg also has a book on Daddy Bach's keyboard music tho I find Victor Lederer's new book -- a listeners guide, very good as an introduction.

There is a new Carl Bach edition based on the recovery of the Berlin library and I think plans for a new Freddy Bach edition.

Evan Cortens wrote (July 8, 2011):
[To William Hoffman] Info on the new CPEB edition available at: http://cpebach.org/ The volumes are all incredibly cheap, and very well done. Highly recommended.

The new WFB edition is already under way, being published by Carus Verlag in Stuttgart. Info here:
http://www.carus-verlag.com/index.php3?BLink=ID4cdd03d7bfea5 (if that
link doesn't come through, just google "friedemann carus", and it's the first result)

The article you're thinking of, I think, is "Wilhelm Friedemann Bach's Halle Performances of Cantatas by His Father" by Peter Wollny, who wrote his Harvard diss on WFB, and is the managing editor for the new Carus edition. This article appears in Bach Studies 2 (as Chapter 12), edited by Daniel Melamed, and is indeed cited several times in Schulenberg's new book. Link here: http://cornell.worldcat.org/oclc/34146723

 

Johann Christian Bach CD of Sacred Music to be released on Harmonia Mundi

Kim Patrick Clow wrote (October 3, 2011):
Harmonia Mundi will be releasing a new CD of J.C. Bach's sacred music (a unjustified neglected genre I must say), including:

A full Requiem (using two compositions) and a Miserere.

Generous sound samples are available @
http://www.harmoniamundi.com/#/albums?view=playlists&id=1724

 

Mr. John Brook

Douglas Cowling wrote (May 22, 2012):
Wahlstedt Jyrki wrote:
< That would be Schreier (a funny name really for a magnificent singer, as 'schreien' means to shriek:) >
It is one of the curious turns of history that Handel's London address was Brook Street -- Bach = brook in German.

Question ... Does the word "der Bach" ever appear in the cantata librettos, and does Bach ever play on the aquatic meaning of his name? Did J.C. Bach ever anglicize his name in London?

Thérèse Hanquet wrote (May 22, 2012):
Douglas Cowling wrote:
" Does Bach ever play on the aquatic meaning of his name"?
The book of Gilles Cantagrel "Le Moulin et la rivière" ("The mill and the river") gives (pages 13 to 19) a number of examples of musical references to water in Bach's cantatas. Among others:

- Eingang chor in BWV 206 ("Schleicht, spielende Wellen"),

- Recitative in BWV 207 which refers to the Pleisse (river of Leipzig),

- Eingang chor in BWV 7 ("Christ unser Herr zum Jurdan kam")

Ed Miskowski wrote (May 23, 2012):
Thérèse Hanquet wrote:
Doug Cowling wrote:
<< ? Does Bach ever play on the aquatic meaning of his name?? >>
TH:
< The book of Gilles Cantagrel ?Le Moulin et la rivière? (?The mill and the river?) gives (pages 13 to 19) a number of examples of musical references to water in Bach?s cantatas. >
Are there examples in any of Bachs texts which specifically use the word *bach, for the English *brook*?

I believe there are in Schubert lieder, although I do not have a reference immediately at hand. Did Schubert ever write *Bachian* music in conjunction?

On a different topic, I meant to point out in the introduction to this weeks discussion topic, BWV 5, the 1994 recording (BCW discography [5]) by Chapelle des Minimes, where Therese is now a choir member. Is this recording still available? Performance reports are always enjoyable and informative, as well.

Peter Smaill wrote (May 23, 2012):
Bach/brook and other ephemera

[To Ed Myskowski] The helpful University of Alberta search function http://webdocs.cs.ualberta.ca/~wfb/bach.html gives the following appearances of the word "bach", perhaps intended eponymously in the second instance:

BWV 245 St John Passion: 2a Jesus ging mit seinen jungern ueber den Bach Kidron

from John's Gospel 18;1; "[After saying these things ], Jesus crossed the Kidron stream with his diciples"

BWV 524 Ein andre moechte Kippen mit dem Backtrog in Bach

This is the wedding-quodlibet whose text is sometimes attributed to Gottsched (not very likely in 1707!) can be rendered as

"[Were I King now in Poland, why then should I care, ]
Let someone else tip over the dough-trough in the brook,"

In addition we have in BWV 81/3, "Belials Baechen", the streams of Belial.

While thinking of Gilles Cantagrel- he notes in his voluminous "Les Cantates de J-S Bach" a private correspondence confirming that Dietrich Fischer -Dieskau was descended through his mother's line (Dieskau) from the von Dieskau landlord, Carl Heinrich, who is the subject of the Peasant Cantata BWV 212. But as far as I know D F-D never performed in this work; perhaps rather as with Glenn Gould, who despite being related in blood via the Scottish maternal line to Edvard Grieg, (original family spelling Greig) loathed the Grieg Piano concerto and refused to record it. Or so they say.

Continue this part of the discussion, see: Dieterich Fischer Dieskau - General Discussions [Performers of Vocal Works]

 

JS vs CPE

David McKay wrote (August 20, 2012):
Last night we watched the Sigiswald Kuijken J S Bach/C.P.E. Bach Ascension Oratorios DVD.

We wonder where Kuijken and the flutists get their haircut, and are not planning to join them ...
But what a contrast between the son and the father!

I like the C.P.E. Bach Resurrection and Ascension of Jesus oratorio [but more than my wife does] but the Oratorio for ascension Day is magnifique!

Ed Myskowski wrote (August 20, 2012):
David McKay wrote:
< Last night we watched the Sigiswald Kuijken J S Bach/C.P.E. Bach Ascension Oratorios DVD.
We wonder where Kuijken and the flutists get their haircut ... >
Haircut? What is that?
>
< I like the C.P.E. Bach Resurrection and Ascension of Jesus oratorio [but more than my wife does] but the Oratorio for ascension Day is magnifique! >
I have commented in the past, re this DVD. I find it illuminating re the evolution of performance forces over a single generation in the 18th C

 

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Last update: ıAugust 23, 2012 ı11:38:39