Discussions

Die Zahl im Kantatenwerk Johann Sebastian Bachs by Arthur Hirsch

Aryeh Oron wrote (March 27, 2021):
The book "Die Zahl im Kantatenwerk Johann Sebastian Bachs [German] by Arthur Hirsch is a study and organized presentation of numerical and numerological symbols in Bach's cantatas, with examples and analysis of virtually every cantata movement.

I was allowed by Patricia Goldeberg, the author's daughter, to presend this book on the BCW. See: https://www.bach-cantatas.com/Books/B0224.htm
You are invited to read the book on the BCW and send us your impressions/reviews.

Zachary Uram wrote (March 28, 2021):
[To Aryeh Oron] English translation?

William Fischer wrote (March 28, 2021):
[To Zachary Uram] I assume that Zach is asking whether there is an English translation of the Hirsch book, or perhaps just asking what the title means. (It’s “Number in Bach’s Cantatas”).

I’ve skimmed the first several pages. I’m not a trained Bach scholar, or an expert about numerology, but Hirsch makes some statements I find implausible. Better: He jumps from example to example, each time finding a different way to count some phenomenon (notes, words, etc.) and then a different way to link the resulting number to some musical or Biblical item. So sometimes it is the number 14, which he sees as a reference to “Bach” by way of the numerical alphabet (B=2, a=1, c=3, h=8, total 14). Elsewhere sees the 39 chords that accompany the text “Main Jesus antwortet nicht” (“My Jesus makes no answer”) as a link to Psalm 39, “I am mute and quiet and say nothing”.

I doubt whether the book has been translated, and I can’t undertake to do that. But if just a few of you say you would like a summary of those initial pages and a full translation of a couple of them, I try to do that. Then you can decide whether or not to pursue your interest by finding someone who knows German well enough to scout through the book for what say you might be interested in, or else, if you have some German, try to find what you might think you want to work out for yourself.

Nils Lid Hjort wrote (March 28, 2021):
[To William Fischer] Thanks for these references and comments -- I do find the theme fascinating, though with a modest amount of skepticism, so to speak. Whereas the "tonal painting" of central words, like "Kreutz", are fine and clear, I hesitate to believe all the semi-hidden numbers, like "aha, 39 bars, that must be a reference to Psalm 39", etc.

I also have what can be judged as a mild professional interest in this, as I work with probability theory and statistics; the indirect questions, seeing texts like Hirsch's, lead to questions like "ok, just how implausible is it, given [put in appropriate assumptions and conditions here], that Bach would have used precisely 39 bars, in a movement like this one?".

There are not surprisingly lots of examples from other spheres and fields, where people "read too much" into numbers.

I can read German and will have a look at Hirsch's book.

William L. Hoffman wrote (March 30, 2021):
Arthur Hirsch is also known for his article, "Johann Sebastian Bach’s Cantatas in Chronological Order" in BACH ( Berea OH: Journal of the Riemenschneider Bach Institute, Vol. 4, No. 3, July 1973: 19, 25); text Scribd. This chronology is repeated in his book, "Die Zahl," pp.173ff. Hirsch also contributed liner notes with Marianne Helms to the Helmut Rilling recordings in the 1980s (not available on BCW). Re. Bach numerology, the authority, Ruth Tatlow, mentions Hirsch in her first book, Bach and Riddle of Number Alphabet (1991),
Amazon.com: "Look inside,' p.3.