Bach's Organ Music
General Discussions - Part 1

Current BCML Organ Music Discussions, etc.

William L. Hoffman wrote (March 18, 2019):
All the recent organ discussions are now on the BCW. See:
http://www.bach-cantatas.com/index.htm
http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Order-2019.htm
http://www.bach-cantatas.com/NVD/index.htm
The organist profiles are linked from:
http://www.bach-cantatas.com/NVP/index.htm

Bruce Simonson wrote (March 20, 2019):
[To William L. Hoffman] Most excellent posts, these organ posts. Thank you so much.

Ed Myskowski wrote (March 25, 2019):
[To William L. Hoffman] I second that emotion! Thanks as always, Will.

BCW: Discussions of Bach's Organ Music

Aryeh Oron wrote (March 19, 2019):
By the end of 2018, the Bach Cantatas Mailing List (BCML), completed its fourth round of weekly repertory on-line discussions of all Bach’s vocal music in its first 20 years.
At the beginning of 2019, we changed direction. The weekly discussions are now focus on electronic recordings and major performers (from pioneers to contemporary), both vocal and instrumental (soloists, groups, conductors) and the Bach repertory, based on the BCW archives of extensive biographical, repertory, and recording information. The discussion in the BCML are edited and presented on the Bach Cantata Website (BCW): http://www.bach-cantatas.com/

A listing of the topics were posted on the BCW by the end of 2018. Participants are encouraged to offer insight, reminiscences, and essays that add to our understanding of these performing greats and their repertory, such as Albert Schweitzer, Pablo Casals, Nikolaus Harnoncourt, and others.

In January 2019, we started discussions of Bach's organ music. We have also asked major organists to send us their views. During the last 3 months a lot of informative and interesting material about this great body of music has been posted to the BCML and uploaded to the BCW. See:
http://www.bach-cantatas.com/index.htm [upper left corner]
http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Order-2019.htm
http://www.bach-cantatas.com/NVD/index.htm [under Organ Works: Organ Music Discussions]
The organist profiles (2 pioneers and 5 contemporaries) are linked from:
http://www.bach-cantatas.com/NVP/index.htm

You are invited to send your reflection/feedback to these discussions in one of the following ways:
1. If you would like to actively participate in the discussions, you are invited to join the BCML. Guidelines how to join the BCML and how to post messages are presented at: http://www.bach-cantatas.com/How.htm
2. Send it to my e-mail address: oron-a@inter.net.il
3. Post it on my Facebook wall.
5. Post it to me via Facebook Messenger.

Notre-Dame - Paris - Bach to the future - Organ

Yves Dubois wrote (April 16, 2019):
With sadness, you know what happened yesterday evening at Paris Cathedral.

The latest recording released few weeks ago is a Bach one, by Olivier Latry, titular since 33 years, called "Bach to the future", edited by "La Dolce Volta"

Olivier's mindset was to adapt the playing of the romantic catholic Notre-Dame cathedral Organ and its acoustic to some suitable work of the protestant Kantor.

By suitable, I mean there was nearly 8 seconds of reverberation at Notre-Dame, not all Bach's work can fit and - to have listen that organ several times - mastering it requises a lot of skills

Now there will be some years before we can hear it again...

Olivier just wrote the organ is quite safe but it will take some time to have it fully functionnal in a restored building - screenshots in copy enclosed

Please find below the link to one of this recording, with some views inside Notre-Dame
Just listen and enjoy: https://youtu.be/e2uuE5ZQN6A

Ed Myskowski wrote (April 18, 2019):
[To Yves Dubois] Thanks for the info re this (sadly) very timely recording, but also for good news re condition of the organ.

While I am at it, thanks also to Julian Mincham and Will Hoffman for the very interesting (and nostalgic for this long time jazz aficionado) discussion of the Modern Jazz Quartet (fronted by John Lewis) and others. I heard the MJQ at least annually (It seems even more often, but memory plays tricks as I [all of us?] age) at Kresge Auditorium during my college years (1958-62) in Cambridge, MA. I recall predicting that they would play Bach someday, and being pooh-poohed by the jazz purists. Eat you hearts out, skeptics!

I also got to enjoy (not to say worship) Milt ("Bags", of Bag's Groove fame) Jackson (MJQ) play vibes almost annually (again, seems even more frequently), including in his very last year. at the Regatta Bar, again Cambridge.

The MJQ always played in tuxedos, I believe at the insistence of John Lewis, to encourage audience (and critical) respect for the music. I do not recall seeing "Bags" in a tux any other time! He always got plenty of respect anyway, and returned it to his audiences. What a gentleman! And what nice memories, gratis Julian and Will.

Julian Mincham wrote (April 18, 2019):
[To Ed Myskowski] Thanks Ed I share your esteem for the MJQ, a distinctive and original group highly influenced by Bach. My only regret was not seeing them live--I envy you that! But I was on the wrong continent. I did see and meet Brubeck though. He came to our university and gave a recital as well as a specialised lecture to the music students.

Question about historical organ pitch

Sneffels wrote (November 11, 2019):
An organist friend, well-known in Europe and familiar with many historical organs there, told me this:

For a long time there was a musicological puzzle regarding the pitch of European baroque organs: many were pitched extremely high, even as much as a third above "normal" pitch. The puzzle was finally resolved when it was realized that high-pitched pipes were smaller and cost substantially less to make.

I've been unable to find evidence to substantiate what my friend claims. Is anyone here familiar with this matter? Can specific organs be cited, or perhaps even recorded at high pitch?

Any thoughts on this would be much appreciated. Thanks!

John G. wrote (November 13, 2019):
[To Sneffels] Yes, your friend is correct, there were at least two different systems of organ tuning with which Bach was familiar, known respectively as "Cornettton" and "Chorton" or Cornett tone and Choir tone.
The evidence for this can be found in the manuscripts for the 'parts' written out for many of the cantatas, which can be found on the web at bach-digital.de.
The parts for the various orchestral instruments are written in "Kammerton", but the part for the organ (continuo with figured bass), often to be found with Bach's handwriting inserting the figuring, is transposed to another key.
Those cantatas which were written before his arrival at Leipzig, the organ continuo is transposed for "Cornettton", those written in Leipzig the organ continuo is transposed to "Chorton" goes the current theory.

If you look at the German wikipedia and search for "orgelton" you will find, about half way down, the section headed "Heutige Verwendung".
Gottfried Silbermanns Chorton der großen Orgel im Freiberger Dom liegt bei a¹ = 476 Hz (ursprünglich etwa 473 Hz), Arp Schnitgers Orgel der Hauptkirche Sankt Jacobi (Hamburg) bei a¹ = 495 Hz.
I believe there's also evidence that 466 Hz was another 'a1' frequency in common use.

Any help?

Sneffels wrote (November 14, 2019):
[To John G.] Thanks, JohnG, that's very much appreciated!

Evan Cortens wrote (November 17, 2019):
[To Snef] If you're interested in learning more about the organs that would have (or could have) been known to Bach, I would heartily recommend Die Orgeln J. S. Bachs: Ein Handbuch by Christoph Wolff and Markus Zepf. The book is available in an excellent English translation, by Lynn Edwards Butler, as The Organs of J. S. Bach: A Handbook.

The book is packed full of about as much detail as one could possibly hope for on dozens of German organs, some of which are still extant. The "preliminary remarks" section includes a short note about organ pitch as well.