Joseph Haydn & Bach

Bach & Haydn

Douglas Cowling wrote (May 12, 2008):
I just returned from a splendid period performance by the Tafelmusic Baroque Orchestra and Chamber Choir of Haydn's Missa Cellensis (Cecilia Mass) and the Mozart Requiem.

As the Haydn mass proceeded, I was struck by how similar the Kyrie and Gloria were to the Mass in B Minor (BWV 232). Written in 1766, the mass is all in discrete movements in almost a Baroque style: very little ensemble singing and no Haydnesque wit (lots of that in the Credo!) There were some familiar features here: an antique fugue for the second Kyrie, a coloratura aria for the Laudamus Te, a fugal "Gratias", another flashy solo for "Quoniam" and a dazzling choral fugue for "Cum Sancto/In Gloria". And all in an extended grand "missa longa style":

I. Kyrie: 'Kyrie Eleison'. Largo
2. 'Christe Eleison'. Allegretto
3. 'Kyrie Eleison'. Vivace
4. Gloria: 'Gloria In Excelsis Deo'. Allegro Molto
5. 'Laudamus Te'. Moderato
6. 'Gratias Agimus Tibi'. Alla Breve
7. 'Domine Deus, Rex Coelestis'. Allegro
8. 'Qui Tollis Peccata Mundi'. Adagio
9. 'Quoniam Tu Solus Sanctus'. Allegro Molto
10. 'Cum Sancto Spiritu'. Largo -
11. 'In Gloria Dei Patris'. Allegro Molto

This is a mass that Bach would have recognized out of his own tradition. I'm not suggesting that there is any connection between the two works, but there was clearly a tradition of large-scale festive masses in the
Dresden-Munich-Salzburg-Vienna orbit which links the two composers. The Mass in B Minor (BWV 232) ceased to be a closet mass written as an abstract exercise but part of a living tradition.

However, I'm not sure Bach would have approved of the puckish way the soprano soloist kept interrupting the choir with a repeated coloratura "Credo, credo" as they tried to sing the text of the Creed. I nearly laughed out loud when she snuck in a final little "credo" flourish before the "Amen".

Kim Patrick Clow wrote (May 12, 2008):
Douglas Cowling wrote:
< I just returned from a splendid period performance by the Tafelmusic Baroque Orchestra and Chamber Choir of Haydn's Missa Cellensis (Cecilia Mass) and the Mozart Requiem. >
Tafelmusic recorded some of the Haydn masses (Schubert and Mozart too) on Sony Classics, and they're absolutely fantastic! Tafelmusic was also recording a Haydn symphony cycle that unfortunately was cancelled. This sounds like a terrific concert, and wished I could have attended myself.

Kim Patrick Clow wrote (May 12, 2008):
Douglas Cowling wrote:
< I'm not suggesting that there is any connection between the two works, but there was clearly a tradition of large-scale festive masses in the Dresden-Munich-Salzburg-Vienna orbit which links the two composers. >
I forgot to mention earlier, there are some absolutely stunning recordings on the Carus Verlag label of new editions of liturgical music from these very traditions, most of it never before published, including Zelenka's Te Deum in D major. You can hear samples from this recording here: JPC

Zelenka's compositional style is very unusual, but it's such a delight to hear. He no doubt was involved in performances of Bach's B Minor Mass (BWV 232) in Dresden.

Johann David Heinichen as Kapellmeister in Dresden wrote large amounts of sacred music, that's just now being published and performed. Amazing quality and a lot of unsual combinations of instruments and sonorities. Heinichen was the tutor to Prince Leopold, who would later become Bach's patron.

Finally, there is the wonderful music of Franz Xavier Richter, again most of his sacred music is untouched, but what's been performed and recorded is a unique blend of baroque style with some elements of the Mannheim court (where he worked for some time).

Here's a listing of the music of these fine composers ;)

ZELENKA:
========
Orats: Oratorium in duas partes divisum: Hic sta peccatrix [(Ettaler oratorium)] (?J. Graf Gondola), Kempten or Ettal, c1740, D-OB (score), A-ST (pts); La deposizione dalla croce (C. Pasquini), Mannheim, 12 April 1748, D-MEIr*, lib MHrm, HEu; lost: Ovis misere perdita (Gondola), Ettal, 21 March 1738, lib HR; Jus coronae caelitus (F. Rosner), Ettal, 2 Sept 1738, lib HR; Amoris crucifixi . triumphus (Gondola), 21 March 1739, lib HR; Misericors Dominus et Justus, Kempten, 6 Sept 1740, lib A-SEI; Anacletus tradoedia, Kempten, Sept 1741, lib D-OB
Other vocal: 34 masses, most in F-Sgs, others A-LA; CH-ZGm; CZ-LIT; D-Bsb, KPs, Mbs, OB; F-Pn; GB-Ob; I-Fc; Requiem, F-Sgs, Pn; Mag a 4 (Paris, c1790); Dixit Dominus, 4vv, chorus, orch/org (Paris, n.d.); 6 Dixit et Mag, 17 other pss, 2 TeD, over 60 motets, cants. and smaller sacred works, most in Sgs, others B-Bc; CH-E; CZ-LIT; D-DO, OB, WEY; F-Pn, Ssp; I-Mc, for details see Mathias (1909), EitnerQ, Reutter (1993); 1 song in De vier muzykale jaargetyden: winter (Amsterdam, 1757-8); 1 aria in The Summer's Tale (London, 1765); arrs. of sacred works by Fux, Jommelli, Hoffmann, Caldara, `Bordier', most F-Sgs

HEINICHEN:
===========
12 masses; 2 Requiem; 8 Mag; 3 TeD; 7 Lamentations (4 lost); 4 lit; 6 hymns; 12 responsories (lost); int; off; 35 Latin hymns and motets; 15 German sacred cants. and motets; 2 orats (La pace di Kamberga; Oratorio tedesco al sepolcro santo, 1724); 2 Cantate al sepolcro di nostro Signore: mostly in Dl

RICHTER:
========
Orats: Oratorium in duas partes divisum: Hic sta peccatrix [(Ettaler oratorium)] (?J. Graf Gondola), Kempten or Ettal, c1740, D-OB (score), A-ST (pts); La deposizione dalla croce (C. Pasquini), Mannheim, 12 April 1748, D-MEIr*, lib MHrm, HEu; lost: Ovis misere perdita (Gondola), Ettal, 21 March 1738, lib HR; Jus coronae caelitus (F. Rosner), Ettal, 2 Sept 1738, lib HR; Amoris crucifixi . triumphus (Gondola), 21 March 1739, lib HR; Misericors Dominus et Justus, Kempten, 6 Sept 1740, lib A-SEI; Anacletus tradoedia, Kempten, Sept 1741, lib D-OB
Other vocal: 34 masses, most in F-Sgs, others A-LA; CH-ZGm; CZ-LIT; D-Bsb, KPs, Mbs, OB; F-Pn; GB-Ob; I-Fc; Requiem, F-Sgs, Pn; Mag a 4 (Paris, c1790); Dixit Dominus, 4vv, chorus, orch/org (Paris, n.d.); 6 Dixit et Mag, 17 other pss, 2 TeD, over 60 motets, cants. and smaller sacred works, most in Sgs, others B-Bc; CH-E; CZ-LIT; D-DO, OB, WEY; F-Pn, Ssp; I-Mc, for details see Mathias (1909), EitnerQ, Reutter (1993); 1 song in De vier muzykale jaargetyden: winter (Amsterdam, 1757-8); 1 aria in The Summer's Tale (London, 1765); arrs. of sacred works by Fux, Jommelli, Hoffmann, Caldara, `Bordier', most F-Sgs

Douglas Cowling wrote (May 12, 2008):
Kim Patrick Clow wrote:
< Zelenka's compositional style is very unusual, but it's such a delight to hear. He no doubt was involved in performances of Bach's B Minor Mass (BWV 232) in Dresden.
Johann David Heinichen as Kapellmeister in Dresden wrote large amounts of sacred music, that's just now being published and performed. Amazing quality and a lot of unsual combinations of instruments and sonorities. Heinichen was the tutor to Prince Leopold, who would later become Bach's patron.
Finally, there is the wonderful music of Franz Xavier Richter, again most of his sacred music is untouched, but what's been performed and recorded is a unique blend of baroque style with some elements of the Mannheim court (where he worked for some time). >
Fascinating material and some juicy titles especially all those orat. I've always thought that Bach's Easter Oratorio was more Italianate than Lutheran. Not hard to imagine Bach sitting in someone's Dresden study and mentally devouring those scores.

My son is passing leaving Berlin next week on a jaunt through Dresden, Prague and Munich. Alas, he'll have more interest in the club scene than Baroque sacred music. Although he did play the oboe admirably as a teenager.

Ed Myskowski wrote (May 12, 2008):
OT [was: Bach & Haydn]

Douglas Cowling wrote:
>My son is passing leaving Berlin next week on a jaunt through Dresden, Prague and Munich. Alas, he'll have more interest in the club scene than Baroque sacred music. Although he did play the oboe admirably as a teenager.<
Just for the record, I repeat my previous opinion that I find the posts re friends and peers of Bach interesting and on topic. Especially when the the subject line is <Bach &>.

Thanks for full disclosure on the family relationship. Perhaps Kim will return with some new insights on Bach's connection to Dresden and Zelenka. In any event, travel safely, and beware of people carrying signs. My all time favorite spoof, from a window sign at the legendary Boston MA music store, Looney Tunes:

<World ends soon! Buy records.>

Somehow this brings to find the <recorder> (relative of the oboe) controversy. Looking through Whittaker for another recent thread, I noticed that he carefully used the term <beak flute>. He was precise, accurate, ahead of his time, and hardly anyone has followed him.

William L. Hoffman wrote (May 13, 2008):
[To Douglas Cowling] William L. Hoffman responds (my notes):

Bethlehem Bach Festival, "Bach and the Oratorio Tradition," George Stauffer (book Mass in b Minor (BWV 232)), banquet talk (May 9) before evening concert (Zelenka Miserere (Psalm 51), ZWV 57; Bach Pentecost Cantata 74; and Ascension Oratorio BWV 11), "Bach's Dresden Connection" and vocal style changes. In 1730 Bach turns to large forms with parody, and interest in Stile antico (thanks to Christoph Wolff research), encounters Palestrina Masses and Lotti-Fux; experiences Zelenka's new "Stile misto (Mixed Style, combining old polyphony and new Neopolitan opera style), especially in Zelenka's Meserere; also growing emphasis on larger-scale choral works, especially in B Minor Mass (BWV 232) (perf. Dresden 1733). Also, Bach as reviser, refiner(Forkel) and parodist (Renaissance tradition), pallindrome form (ABCBA, Mass movts.) with return of opening music to new text (contrafaction), opening Misere music = Doxology, involves dissonance with pulsating bass (like Mozart's Requiem); also arias from opera, i.e. Neopolitan love duet (original version of Wer mich liebet, 59/1) as well as the dance (four in BWV 11, 1735, from original wedding cantata BWV Anh. 196, 1725, Gottsched text); integration of modern professional orchestra music into vocal textures; interest in various facets of "dramma per musica" and the oratorio. (Wolff believes Bach spent much of his time in Dresden copying old music from Zelenka's Library (Italian) as well as the Saxon State Library (Schütz).)

Douglas Cowling wrote (May 12, 2008):
William L. Hoffman wrote:
< (Wolff believes Bach spent much of his time in Dresden copying old music from Zelenka's Library (Italian) as well as the Saxon State Library (Schütz).) >
So much for Bach the quaint old provincial choirmaster!

Fascinating.

Continue of this discussion, see: Jan Dismas Zelenka & Bach [Bach & Other Composers]

Haydn sites

David McKay wrote (November 26, 2011):
There are such rich Bach resources on the net freely available, thanks to many of you folk [and others]. Not having much luck finding any decent Haydn resources. Is there a message in that? Any suggestions?

Kim Patrick Clow wrote (November 27, 2011):
[To David McKay] There are PLENTY of them. Here's a good starting point:
http://www.haydnsocietyofnorthamerica.org/

David McKay wrote (November 27, 2011):
[To Kim Patrick Clow] Thanks
K P

I've made a start on a Haydn blog, where I hope to post links and information I've found.
http://haydnpages.blogspot.com/