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Cantata BWV 200
Bekennen will ich seinen Namen
Discussions - Part 3 |
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Continue from Part 2 |
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Discussions in the Week of December 14, 2008 [Continue] |
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Terejia wrote (December 19, 2008):
OT? circumstantial affairs on Christmas
Kim Patrick Clow wrote: http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/BachCantatas/message/29524
(..)
< Dr. Michael Molnar has discovered gold coins from Antioch dated to 6 B.C. By using ancient astrological sources from the period (that explain the symbolisms on coins), and using astrological charts and combining that with the story as it's presented in the New Testament, ad using computer models of the astronomical events (essentially running them backwards) Dr. Molnar determined there were three times when such a "star" would have appeared: April 17 (when the "star" appeared in the "east"), August 23, and drumroll December 18th for several days (when the account in the gospels describe "stood over").>
Interesting! Somehow, your account reminds me of oboe accompanyment of Bass aria in Part 5 Christmas Oratorio. It is very personal feeling but I feel as if oboe were depicting star lightening the darkest part of mind in that aria. I feel oboe in general is special in terms of aethetics- of course so are other istruments and voices...
Also, I vaguely feel that the use/aethetic purpose of oboe is somehow different between Bach and Mozart. I cannot say exactly how, currently.
< Drier uses iconography, art work and historical accounts to discuss the Magi. After looking at many legends about the magi and the surviving evidence, Drier finds compelling evidence suggests that the remains of the 3 magi are in fact in Cologne Cathedral today, which he points out is the only cathedral in the world that has uses a star on it's crown, and not a cross or crucifix. >
(..)
It's really beautiful, be it academically correct or not(which I am in no capacity to judge), it is enriching and inspiring.
Thank you for contribution. |
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Kim Patrick Clow wrote (December 19, 2008):
Douglas Cowling wrote:
< I think we need to be cautious in bringing popular archaeology and scholarship into the mix. Most mainstream scholars would agree that the historicity of the Infancy narratives in Matthew and Luke are irretrievable to investigation. Even the New Testament writers vary in their approach to the questions. Neither Mark nor John have birth narratives, and the letters of Paul, the earliest strata of the New Testament, merely comment that Jesus was "born of a woman." >
But the thing is, both researchers aren't making any claims about the historical nature of the birth accounts, rather they are looking at the context of the period and explaining the symbolism used in astrology as found on real objects, and astronomical computer models, then trying to understand that context, as it's presented in the gospels. There was a astrological event that DID occur in 6 B.C. Drier looks at the calenders used and explains the mixup about that too. Sure it's speculative, but it's informed speculation.
The same thing could be said about the crucifixion and passion accounts in the New Testament too-- there's a great deal of confusion about what happened specifically, all the Gospels vary on details, but there are archalogical findings that tend to support some elements of it. Remember, some of the most die hard New Testament form critics of the New Testament didn't believe there were any historical figures in any of the accounts, but archaelogy has a way of proving scholar's assumptions wrong.
< The best modern commentary is "The Birth of the Messiah" by Raymond Brown (Doubleday, 1977). He later wrote "The Death of the Messiah" on the Passion narratives. >
Yep. Great reseacher, have read everything he wrote and one of my college professors was a student of Brown's. But that doesn't change the fact anything form critics write about the New Testament isn't any more speculative than what Bob Drier has done.
Merry Christmas :-) |
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Douglas Cowling wrote (December 19, 2008):
Kim Patrick Clow wrote:
< Yep. Great reseacher, have read everything he wrote and one of my college professors was a student of Brown's. But that doesn't change the fact anything form critics write about the New Testament isn't any more speculative than what Bob Drier has done. >
Grin. I don't really agree. Most modern archaeologists of ancient Israel/Palestine resist the label of "biblical archaeologist", and dissociate themselves from the notion that they are searching for "proofs" of the biblical narratives. In some cases, there are spectacular archaelogical finds: a stone inscription with the name of Pilate. In many others, however, there is a popular rush to judgment: the controversy over the supposed ossuary of James.
The same impulse can be seen in scientific studies of the astronomy of the ancient period by astronomers whose science is impeccable but who don't have the biblical expertise. Even PBS falls victim to these tempting "proofs." At the same time, there are more sophisticated treatments of the scholarly questions: "From Jesus to Christ" was an excellent, if somewhat provocative, examination of the early Christian period.
To get back to Bach ...
The 18th century saw the explosion of much modern biblical criticism: for example, the recognition that there were multiple authors of Isaiah. It would be interesting to know if the new scholarship was active at Leipzig and whether Bach had any contact with these academics. |
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Ed Myskowski wrote (December 19, 2008):
Kim Patrick Clow wrote:
>Dr. Michael Molnar has discovered gold coins from Antioch dated to 6 B.C.<
I am curious as to the method used for dating, with that precision. Or are the coins stamped with the date (6 BC)? |
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Jean Laaninen wrote (December 19, 2008):
[To Trejia] I have no argument regarding the aesthetics of a work. But in response to why Bach would have chosen to do something special I think there is a combination of cultural patterns and the darkest time of the year. Scandinavians still celebrate the Santa Lucia event in Lutheran communities in America in December -- more of the light in darkness pattern. And I guess for me, having grown up with Bach and festive and enriching traditions connected to his music, the aesthetic, the text and the cultural/historical aspect combine richly. However, as a singer, I am a text first thinker, following along into the instrumental aspects regarding the cantatas. During the years some time ago as an organist, I often found elements of chorales or techniques of previous works incorporated in the organ works pleasing or depressing or hopeful--more the aesthetic aspect, and made appropriate choices of what material to use based on the church year.
But I think it is difficult to spell out what aesthetics actually comprises. This probably differs some from person to person. As you use the term aesthetics, I'd be interested in your definition of the word.
As a person who took my singing training further than my playing, I find my tendency now is to look first at a work, almost from the business aspect of how it might have been used, and then go on to study the structural elements to see how Bach carries out a given story. Or, if I am going to learn and record something then I think additionally in those terms. |
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Kim Patrick Clow wrote (December 19, 2008):
Douglas Cowling wrote:
< Grin. I don't really agree. Most modern archaeologists of ancient Israel/Palestine resist the label of "biblical archaeologist", and dissociate themselves from the notion that they are searching for "proofs" > of the biblical narratives. >
Nice strawmen. William G. Dever is referenced in the press as a "Biblical archaeologist" but it's not a title he would call himself and certainly doesn't reflect on the quality of his work; and please show me where either one of the two people I cited in my first post made such claims.
< In some cases, there are spectacular archaelogical finds: a stone inscription with the name of Pilate. >
I think the list is a lot longer than just finding Pilat's name inscribed. The most recent and exciting find was the discovery of Herod's tomb. Another one is the discovery of a 8th or 9th century artifact that mentions the "House of David." But many form critics of the Bible just 100 years ago claimed all of these historial figures never existed.
< In many others, however, there is a popular rush to judgment: the controversy over the supposed ossuary of James. >
A popular rush to judgement? In the specific case you cite: a claim was made by Israeli antiquities dealer Oded Golan, who he said "discovered" James's ossuary (the brother of Jesus or cousin if you're Roman Cathoic)--that claim that was later debunked by experts. The popular rush as you call it was made by the press, not anyone within the field of archaeology itself.
< The same impulse can be seen in scientific studies of the astronomy of the ancient period by astronomers whose science is impeccable but who don't have the biblical expertise. >
What you really mean, they have a different take on the scientific evidence. grin If specialists are making claims based on science, and making statements about that only, who cares if they have biblical expertise? By way of example: let's say the remains under the altar of St. Peter's Basilica were tested for genetic markers, in an effort to determine the geographic origin of the body. If the experts reported back that the person had genetic markers indicating he was from the Middle East, would you really care if they were "biblical specialists" or not? By the same token, should we disqualify Biblical form critics when they write about scientific matters outside their field? Just because form critics write off any historical veracity within the gospel accounts because they say so, and shut off their world view to science, that's rather circular thinking.
< At the same time, there are more sophisticated treatments of the scholarly questions: "From Jesus to Christ" was an excellent, if somewhat provocative, examination of the early Christian period. >
Well of course, that's stating the pretty obvious isn't it? The TLC show was never meant to be a scholarly monograph; instead it showed the highlights of the research about the Star of Bethlehem and the Magi. If the broadcast generated any interest in viewers to look more into this subject, then bravo!
< To get back to Bach ...
The 18th century saw the explosion of much modern biblical criticism: for example, the recognition that there were multiple authors of Isaiah. It would be interesting to know if the new scholarship was active at
Leipzig and whether Bach had any contact with these academics. >
Rationalism had been around since the late Renaissance, I'm sure Bach, Fasch, Telemann, et al were involved in the bruhaha all the writings of Kant and Lessing were generating.
Merry Christmas, |
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Douglas Cowling wrote (December 20, 2008):
Kim Patrick Clow wrote:
< Rationalism had been around since the late Renaissance, I'm sure Bach, Fasch, Telemann, et al were involved in the bruhaha all the writings of Kant and Lessing were generating. >
This takes us back to an old firestorm I started about the nature of ecclesiastical censorship in Bach's Leipzig. If "reductionist" scholars were astir in Leipzig, Bach's cantata libretti would have aroused intense interest in those who were charged with maintaining orthodoxy. Since Bach himself was one of those watchdogs of orthodoxy, is it totally fanciful that his texts were informally reviewed by his colleagues, the Superintendant in particular, before they went to the printer?
There would certainly have been conservative clerics who watched Bach's close association with university academics. The fact that very little, if any, theological heterodoxy manifests itself in Bach's cantatas would suggest that Bach was not only a well-regulated composer but a self-regulating composer. Interesting to think of Bach positioning himself not only between political parties but philosophical schools as well.
Has anyone studied the atmosphere at the university during Bach's tenure? Being surrounded constantly by young students all the time must have brought him into contact with just about every political and philosophical controversy of the period. |
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William L. Hoffman wrote (December 20, 2008):
BWV 200 - Candlemas, Fugotes: Bach & Canticles
Fugitive Notes: Canticles and Bach
Thanks to Stiller and our contributors, we have a sound perspective on liturgical practice and Lutheran history in Bach's time. As to the larger issue of Bach's involvement with the academic and related currents during his time, the best grounding, IMO is Carol Baron's Bach's Changing World>, which I know Ed has read through.
I turn to the Calov Biblical Commentary and Howard Cox's findings first, one of which still stirs considerable interest and positive debate. This is the Canticle of Moses, Exodus 15:2, "The Lord is my strength and song"; what Robin Leaver calls the first Western music. Bach's marginal comment: "First prelude for two choirs to be performed to the honor of God." While Bach does not use this canticle in his work (Handel does in <Israel in Egypt> 1740), the closest that we come to the marginal comment, literally, is Motet BWV 225, "Sing to the Lord a new song" (Ps. 149).
Biblical canticles, also called songs or chants, are a special group of non-psalmic songs. They are intimate songs of individuals directly to God, often as thanksgiving for deliverance. Besides the Song of Moses, echoed by Miriam, there are other notable OT canticles which Bach treats extensively: Moses' canticle to the Congregation of Israel, Deut. 32, notably, verse 4, "He is the rock, his work is perfect"; and the wisdom Song of Solomon; as well as Hanna's Canticle, 1 Samuel 2, beginning verse 1, My heart rejoiceth in the Lord (Cantata BWV 10/1, German Magnificant).
What is most significant is Bach's treatment of the three NT Lukan canticles: Mary's Magnificant (My soul doth magnify the Lord), 1:46-55; Zacharias' "Benedictus" (Blessed be the Lord God of Israel), 1:68-79; and Simeon's Nunc dimittis (Lord, let your servant depart in peace), 2:29-32. His usages, variously, are for the Feast of Christmas (BWV 243a) and John the Baptist (BWV 30!, BWV 167), as well as the Marian Festivals of Purification (Simeon, Feb. 2; BWV 200, BWV 157/4, BWV 82/2, BWV 125, BWV 83/2, BWV 158/2); Annunciation, Gabriel's Prophecy, Lk. 1:26-38 (BWV 1, BWV 182 and BWV Anh. 199 and BWV Anh. 156); and Visitation, Magnificat (BWV 243, BWV 10, BWV 147, BWV Anh. 21). Obviously, Bach had some great Lutheran texts to work with, notably the German Magnificat and chorale "Mit Fried und Freud."
In conclusion, I would venture to point out that these canticles are a vital part of the vespers, especially the Lucan at Eventide, as well as those other great Psalmic songs, found throughout Bach's celebratory music. So, with all humble respect to both our Catholic brethren and the Protestant Book of Common Prayer, and with a vital acknowledgement of prior contributors to this week's discussion, too numerous to name -- IMHO these songs as well as the German Te Deum and Gloria Patri are the foundation of Bach's joyous music, SDG, aesthetically, and an ecumenical expression from the Lutheran Cantor and composer of Great C(c)atholic Mass in B-Minor.
P.S.: Re. Peter Smaill's recent BCW entry: "Stiller, quoting Rost, notes that in 1724 the feast day of the apostle James was observed in Leipzig (25 July) which is odd in that Luther loathed the Book of James because of its support of the doctrine of Justification by works." In the Lutheran doctrine (for ?Baptism), I think Lutherans make three pledges: To follow the word alone, faith alone, and grace alone, that is to do good works after the acceptance of justification of faith through grace freely given. |
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Jean Laaninen wrote (December 20, 2008):
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aesthetics
Aesthetics or esthetics (also spelled æsthetics) is commonly known as the study of sensory or sensori-emotional values, sometimes called judgments of sentiment and taste.[1] More broadly, scholars in the field define aesthetics as "critical reflection on art, culture and nature."[2][3] Aesthetics is a subdiscipline of axiology, a branch of philosophy, and is closely associated with the philosophy of art.[4] Aesthetics studies new ways of seeing and of perceiving the world.[5]
I guess this is a pretty broad term, so maybe in discussion it would be helpful to define what part of aesthetics is being addressed for greater clarity. The definition seems to include time, culture, etc., so I don't think the elements are independent to many people. |
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Douglas Cowling wrote (December 20, 2008):
William L. Hoffman wrote:
< What is most significant is Bach's treatment of the three NT Lukan canticles: Mary's Magnificant (My soul doth magnify the Lord), 1:46-55; Zacharias' "Benedictus" (Blessed be the Lord God of Israel), 1:68-79; and Simeon's Nunc dimittis (Lord, let your servant depart in peace), 2:29-32. >
It's worth pointing out that the canticles were part of Bach's daily experience. At the Eisenach school, the young Bach and his fellow boys sang Matins (Morning Prayer) at 5:30 am and Vespers (Evening Prayer) at 1:30 pm every day of the week. The Benedictus or Te Deum were sung at Matins daily and the Magnificat at Vespers. (Compline with its canticle, Nunc Dimittis, does not seem to have been sung in every collegiate church.)
The same daily pattern was in place for the boys of St. Thomas when Bach came to Leipzig. Although the boys were led by one of the prefects for the daily offices, Bach would have had ultimate responsibility that they knew their music. And of course, the Magnificat was sung in a polyphonic setting every week at Sunday Vespers and in a concerted setting on festivals.
Commentators often make the Magnificat in D sound like an orphan in Bach's works, but, in fact, the canticle was constantly present in Bach's creative consciousness. We see this beautifully expressed in the "Suscepit Israel puerum suum" of the D Major setting. The text literally means "He has helped Israel, his boy (=servant). Bach picks up "puerum" and conjures up an aural vision of choirboys singing daily Matins by setting it for three upper voices. And above them, the oboes intone the old German Magnificat, the chorale melody which they sang at those chilly, early Matins services. |
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Ed Myskowski wrote (December 21, 2008):
BWV 200 recordings
The Gardiner version of BWV 200, from the year 2000 pilgrimage series, was the first choice of many listeners in the first discussions. Note that the recording is included on one of the four CDs from that series which are available only in the original DG Archiv issues, not in the ongoing SDG releases. The details of this tangled web were kindly (with a bit tedious effort, I expect) provided by Sandy Vaughn in 2006, available in BCW archives at: http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Performers/Gardiner-Gen11.htm
Essential information for those planning to collect the complete pilgrimage releases. I also noticed some nostalgic Xmas/Solstice chat archived on the same page. What a merry coincidence!
I share the enthusiasm for Gardiner and ct Robin Tyson, but I find the Koopman version, which was not available at the time of earlier discussion, to be equally enjoyable with its own distinct character. The tempos are comparable, very unhurried, Koopmans gestural details (see earlier explanation by Brad Lehman, from p. 1 of BWV 200 discussion) are somewhat lighter, and provide a fine example of how two different interpretations can be equally <correct>, at least to my ears. Alto Bogna Bartosz is not to be missed, if you will forgive me saying that one more time.
Aloha, Ed Myskowski (early solstice AM) |
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Terejia wrote (December 21, 2008):
Jean Laaninen wrote: http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/BachCantatas/message/29538
quote from the link you gave: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aesthetics#cite_note-4
'For Baumgarten aesthetics is the science of the sense experiences, a younger sister of logic, and beauty is thus the most perfect kind of knowledge that sense experience can have. For Kant the aesthetic experience of beauty is a judgment of a subjective but universal truth, since all people should agree that 'this rose is beautiful' if it in fact is. However, beauty cannot be reduced to any more basic set of features. For Schiller aesthetic appreciation of beauty is the most perfect reconciliation of the sensual and rational parts of human nature.
For Hegel all culture is a matter of "absolute spirit" coming to be manifest to itself, stage by stage. Art is the first stage in which the absolute spirit is manifest immediately to sense-perception, and is thus an objective rather than subjective revelation of beauty. For Schopenhauer aesthetic contemplation of beauty is the most free that the pure intellect can be from the dictates of will; here we contemplate perfection of form without any kind of worldly agenda, and thus any intrusion of utility or politics would ruin the point of the beauty.'
This is how I use the word 'aethetics', roughly speaking. I do not mean that these paragraphs I quoted is correct but at least for me personally aethetics is something absolute(as opposed to relative), objective and often mathematical. Since I am far from up to defining as precisely as the quoted paragraph, the link helps me a lot.
I am in the process of learning and I am subject to change, but, for now, I feel Bach's music is expressing aethetics mostly in terms of absolutes, sometimes in terms of relatives. BWV 191 feels like more absolutes rather than relative, to my personal ears. |
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Neil Halliday wrote (December 21, 2008):
[Recordings] Finally, Suzuki should also be mentioned, for a lovely example of BWV 200; relaxed tempo, rich acoustic, Robin Blaze in fine form. |
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Terejia wrote (December 21, 2008):
Bach and misceleneous
Jean Laaninen wrote: http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/BachCantatas/message/29531
>> I have no argument regarding the aesthetics of a work. But in response to why Bach would have chosen to do something special I think there is a combination of cultural patterns and the darkest time of the year. Scandinavians still celebrate the Santa Lucia event in Lutheran communities in America in December--more of the light in darkness pattern. And I guess for me, having grown up with Bach and festive and enriching traditions connected to his music, the aesthetic, the text and the cultural/historical aspect combine richly.<<
Probably this is an approach which is a missing element on my part. One of my organ teachers, who studied in a solid German Christian culture (he studied in northern part of Germany, protestant culture, not southern region which has Catholic tradition) used to say that in order to really grasp Western classical music, one may as well place oneself in the same environment as the compos, breath the same air as the composer.
Although I was baptized in Catholic in my twenties, I was born and brought up in oriental culture, Buddhism and Shintoism environment. Logical and mathematical approach is the best I can do. Not always correct approach to rely solely on intellectual approach, but for now I cannot help. Most of the active posters are those from USA areas or Europa countries.
(..)
< But I think it is difficult to spell out what aesthetics actually comprises. This probably differs some from person to person. As you use the term aesthetics, >
(..)
Yes. I have much more to explore into. I vaguely feel oriental notion of aethetics is much different from that in western world. Not the matter or superior or inferior, simply different.
Now speaking of winter solstice, it seems to me as if Japan is seeing the darkest hours now. Yesterday, I attended a seminar addressed to lawyers and social workers on the subject of Livelihood Protection. As you might know in news, recent financial crisis and job shortage is driving more and more people on the street in this cold winter. I came acquainted with many social workers and I realized we both share the same earnest desire : may the text of the first movement of BWV 191 come true and we see peace on earth!
I may have to refer more to the text, since cantatas are vocal works. Thank you for your supplementary insight. |
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Jean Laaninen wrote (December 21, 2008):
[To Terejia] You are catching on to the context, and you also have a home frame of reference in your final paragraph. I am still thinking about your prior post on the topic of what aesthetics means, and I will post something more before too long. However, the holidays are just about here, and as with many people, I will be somewhat busy...but I will comment more eventually. (Chuckle--no surprise.) |
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Ed Myskowski wrote (December 22, 2008):
OT? BWV 200 - Bach and history
From the site which appears to be sponsored by Dr. Michael Molnar, astronomer, representing his book: <The Star of Bethlehem: The Legacy of the Magi>
http://www.eclipse.net/~molnar/
>Why do we celebrate December 25 as Jesus birthday?
Early Christians did not know the birth date so they adopted and converted a pagan holiday, the birthday of Sol Invictus, the Unconquerable Sun. As I explain in the book it was not the Roman Saturnalia that was converted into Christmas, but the birthday of the pagan sun god. (p. 55-57) <
Leaving me to feel at peace (internally), wishing everyone a Merry Christmas (in a few days) and a swinging solstice (an instant of time in the day just passing).
I recall a reference (which I do not have time to recover at the moment), suggesting that the reason we celebrate Dec. 25, rather than the precise solstice, usually Dec. 21, is that the four day time interval is exactly what was required to confirm by ancient astronomy (Stonehenge, for example) that the sun had indeed reached its low point, and begun to recover. Patience, only forty days until Candlemas (BWV 200 and many more). |
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Bruce Simonson wrote (December 23, 2008):
[To William L. Hoffman, regarding Fugitive Notes: Canticles and Bach] I want to acknowledge William's important post on the Canticles; it slipped through my reading of the list. One of my current hot topics of interest is Bach's treatment of the OT and NT Canticles. I hope the group can provide additional insights and pointers to additional resources. |
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Ed Myskowski wrote (December 23, 2008):
OT? Bach and history
Terejia wrote:
>Overall, in Japan, Catholic church is much popularity oriented and original solemn flavour which might be retained in Europa or USA Catholic churches is almost lost-they gave way to popularity.<
Jean Laaninen wrote, paraphrasing Thomas Cahill:
>Gregory had an interesting perspective in that he told Augustine not to prefer Roman customs to English--rather, to retain what was good about pagan customs in order to make the missionary message more palatable. "Nor was there any need to outlaw the old festivals or the customs that accompanied them. Just baptize them a bit."<
Anything I might try to add would be superfluous? How about the old adage: <When in Rome, do as the Romans do>? |
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Ed Myskowski wrote (December 23, 2008):
Bach and misc.
Terejia wrote:
>Logical and mathematical approach is the best I can do. Not always correct approach to rely solely on intellectual approach, but for now I cannot help.<
Logic is never inappropriate, IMO. Some may disagree.
I do not find that Terejia relies <solely on intellectual approach., indeed just the opposite. I find her expressions about how the music makes her feel, especially emotional reactions to different keys, very rewarding to share.
One of the great benefits of BCW, and one of Aryeh's stated objectives, is to share Bach around the world, in all languages. Just a reminder, there are no 18th C. Leipzig Lutherans alive. We are all outsiders, enjoying the challenge of understanding that culture and the miracle of the music. |
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Stephen Benson wrote (December 24, 2008):
Ed Myskowski wrote:
< Just a reminder, there are no 18th C. Leipzig Lutherans alive. We are all outsiders, enjoying the challenge of understanding that culture and the miracle of the music. >
A quotable quote, Ed! |
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Jean Laaninen wrote (December 24, 2008):
Jean Laaninen wrote:
< You are catching on to the context, and you also have a home frame of reference in your final paragraph. I am still thinking about your prior post on the topic of what aesthetics means, and I will post something more before too long. However, the holidays are just about here, and as with many people, I will be somewhat busy...but I will comment more eventually. (Chuckle--no surprise.) >
When you say logical and mathematical perhaps you mean that you appreciate the strucutre of the works as your ear picks up on the various lines in Bach.
Tell me if I have the right idea. |
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Jean Laaninen wrote (December 24, 2008):
[To Terejia] When you say absolute, do you mean that you are immediately attracted to the work as complete and fulfilling. Does relative mean you are not quite as impressed, or you do not think that the text and the music fulfill an idea as much as possible? |
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Terejia wrote (December 25, 2008):
Jean Laaninen wrote: http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/BachCantatas/message/29618
< When you say logical and mathematical perhaps you mean that you appreciate the strucutre of the works as your ear picks up on the various lines in Bach. >
Yes, something of the sort. I like structural beauty in Bach's combination of lines,which are beautiful in itself when taken apart. My example is the last movement of BWV 131 fugue part, in which, three lines, beautiful in themselves when taken apart, are combined beautifully. |
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Terejia wrote (December 25, 2008):
absolutes and relatives in Bach cantata
Jean Laaninen wrote: http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/BachCantatas/message/29619
> When you say absolute, do you mean that you are immediately attracted to the work as complete and fulfilling.<
Yes, something of the sort. I used the word absolute meaning "independent of " other elements.
> Does relative mean you are not quite as > impressed, <
Not quite... being impressed or not is another separate issue here, for me.
>or you do not think that the text and the music fulfill an idea as much as possible? <
I used the word "relative" meaning " in relation to other things", like , for example, in relation to Christmas liturgy, advent text.
In my own understanding, cantata tends to be relative in that it has text/liberetto as part of it. As Ed said, nobody here has live experiene of Lutherian church liturgy in Germany around the time 1685~ 18C, but as is often pointed out, the cantata originally was performed within a particular context, to the best of my understanding.
The thema of aethetic has so deepto explore and well worth being researched into its depth.
best wishes for holiday |
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Terejia wrote (December 25, 2008):
Summery of recent posts
Thank you, all, for contributing lively and fruiteful discussions. The following is a rough summery of the posts these few days. Far from satisfactory, but Ifd like to offer my humble summery substituting individual replies, which courtesy requires. Also dedicated to the future discussion leader, if it should be of any use at all.
BWV 552 related posts (with much appreciation! Those posts of yours helped me a lot last night )
http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/BachCantatas/message/29610
http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/BachCantatas/message/29606
http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/BachCantatas/message/29615
In dulci Jubilo
http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/BachCantatas/message/29597
http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/BachCantatas/message/29598
http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/BachCantatas/message/29596
Christmas works by J.S.Bach and other composers
http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/BachCantatas/message/29624
http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/BachCantatas/message/29605
http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/BachCantatas/message/29621
http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/BachCantatas/message/29614
Commentar on Bach's Advent cantata BWV 61
http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/BachCantatas/message/29613
BWV 243 and/or BWV 243a from the perspective of performers
http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/BachCantatas/message/29625
http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/BachCantatas/message/29626
http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/BachCantatas/message/29628
<> |
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David Glenn Lebut Jr. wrote (December 25, 2008):
[To Bruce Simonson] Bach, to the best of my memory, never treated any of the OT Canticles (i.e., the Canticle of Moses, the three Canticles of Isaiah, etc.). As far as the NT Canticles, Cantata BWV 10 and of course BWV 243 and BWV 243a treat the Canticle of Mary (the "Magnificat anima mea") and Cantata BWV 125 treats one of the two Luther treatments of the Canticle of Simeon ("Mit Fried' und Freud' ich fahr dahin") His treatments also could be found in the smaller Chorale and Sacred Song treatments (BWV 253-523) and, of course, in the Chorale preludes (BWV 599-771).
In other sources, Bach's treatment of the Magnificat tune could also be found in the 2nd movement of both of Bach's second-eldest son's first treatment of the Matthäus-Passion (namely that of 1769) and of the Passionskantate "Die letzten Leiden des Erloesers" of 1770. |
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James Atkins Pritchard wrote (January 5, 2009):
[To Douglas Cowling] Raymond Erickson read a paper a few years ago at a meeting of the American Bach Society called "Leipzig Theologians and the Early Enlightenment: A new avenue to the issue of Bach and the Jews." It occurs to me that this may be of interest.
http://j.s.bach.gr.jp/tomita/script/bach2.pl?23=22509
www.americanbachsociety.org/Meetings/LeipzigMeeting.htm
http://qcpages.qc.cuny.edu/music/index.php?L=1&M=120
On might also want to look at this when it comes out: Amazon.com
Kant and Lessing were just beginning to publish in the years immediately before Bach's death so I don't think it likely that they made much of an impression on him. |
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Continue on Part 4 |
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