Organ Works BWV 561-570
Discussions - Part 3

Continue from Part 2

Toccata and Fugue in D Minor

Douglas Cowling wrote (August 12, 2008):
Julian Mincham wrote:
> Or for violin. The BBC did a broadcast some years ago analysing the (many) features of the toccata which are decidedly not Bachian and also made a claim that the fugue was based on some?pretty run of the mill ideas and harmonic progressions which, if they originated with Bach, could be thought to be Bach at his least inspiring level. It also picked out some parts of the fugue (particularly near the end) which verged upon formulaic note spinning. <
Excellent documentary with a pretty convincing case. The most interesting argument was against the opening mordent as unidiomatic -- although I have subsequently found opening mordents in Bach's organ works -- "Jesu Meine Zuversicht" for example. They demonstrated the "original" version on some odd member of the string family - viola pomposa or something of the like. I was less persuaded by the arguments against the fugue -- the toccata elements within the counterpoint are rather effective. If I recall, the documentary didn't consider the fugue part of the orginal sonata.

No matter what scholars say, it will always be "Bach's Toccata and Fugue" and perhaps forever his signature tune in the popular imagination. That or the "Minuet in G".

Michael Mannix wrote (August 13, 2008):
[To Douglas Cowling] Who did write it then? When and where?

Bradley Lehman wrote (August 13, 2008):
[To Michael Mannix] There are some speculative ideas in Peter Williams's newest edition of his book about the JSB organ music. I don't have my copy handy. books.google.com and/or Amazon would probably let you search inside, and take a look.

Julian Mincham wrote (August 13, 2008):
[To Bradley Lehman] I don't have immediate access to this book either. But in his 2007 book on JS Bach Williams says of this work that 'too little is demonstrably reliable or even authentic about this famous piece for it to have anything certain to do with, or to say anything certain about, the young organist JS Bach' (p 82).

It is one thing of course to say that the work was unlikely to have been written by Bach and quite another to say definitively?who wrote it. The score emerged in the mid classical period, at a time when publishers were wont to put a famours name on a piece to sell it and there are no direct links with Bach or, just as importantly, to any of his known copyists.Hence there is ?a situation of doubt.

Strong arguments also come from a study of the music itself. I have dug out the tape of the BBC broadcast I refered to in an earlier posting. I'll try to get around to hearing it later today and post a summary of the observations.??

John Pike wrote (August 13, 2008):
Many years ago, I heard Peter Hurford on the radio saying that Peter Williams had questioned Bach's authorship of the T+F in D minor. I'm grateful to Kim for pointing out where Williams first raised these doubts. Last night I looked in Williams' "Bach Organ Music", a thin booklet in the BBC Music series, published by BBC Publications in 1972. At that time, Williams was not questioning Bach's authorship. He said that some others had wondered whether it was in a North German style but he felt himself at that time that it was in a very different style and much more interesting (my word) than anything from North Germany. I don't have the book to hand at work for the exact quote but it was on about p.14 if anyone else has that old book. It seems that Williams has changed his mind about the authorship of this work, but I doubt if he has changed his mind about the quality of the piece. Whatever the simplicity of it's musical construction, it still seems an absolutely splendid piece to listen to. If Bach didn't write it, then someone else with talent did.

Authorship of some pieces by Mozart has also been questioned before. Of one work (I think it was a wind serenade) a musicologist stated "Whoever wrote this work did not know how to write music". I could only humbly beg to differ. Whatever the flaws in its construction, according to accepted wisdom about how to compose, it is still an extremely satisfying and enjoyable piece to listen to.

Julian Mincham wrote (August 13, 2008):
[To John Pike] Another such piece is the famous Adagio by Albinoni. Ironic how some of the works deemed best known by some composers may turn out not to have been composed by them after all.?

Julian Mincham wrote (August 13, 2008):
[To Douglas Cowling] I think we may have two different programmes in mind. I have just heard the tape through; I had forgotten that it was a broadcast made by Peter Williams himself sometime, I think in the early 1990s.

The doubts about the score and its transmission I have alluded to in an earlier posting. In this broadcast Williams takes structural elements of both toccata and fugue and points out features which he believes are not idiomatic? e.g. the opening in bare octaves, the minor plagal cadence, the dramatic/atmospheric use of the rising dim 7th chords, stretches of figuration with little harmonic movement, the naive countersubject to the fugue subject using little more than thirds and sixths (the intervals a solo violin would use to fill in the harmony) the naive echo effects (of an 8 note figure) in one of the fugal episodes, the pedals entering with the fugue subject while the upper parts are bare?(please note that I am doing Williams a dis-service by simply listing these as he gives a full explanation, with played examples, of each. I am only listing them to show the?detail of his analysis of the doubful aspects of the musical structuring).

There are two principal questions underlying this broadcast? 1 did Bach?compose the original or do a transcription of a piece by another composer???
??2 did another composer do a transcription of an original piece by Bach---or by someone else?

William's arguments that the piece is a transcription from an original?composition for violin is compelling (he makes several?relevant points such as the repeated pedal effect on an open string just after the opening bars of the toccata). The broadcast ended with a very convincing performance on the baroque violin. I think his arguments are pretty well unassailable on this point.

However i would say that the jury is still out on who the original composer may have been. There are a number of good reasons to suppose that it was not Bach himself--although the possibility that he did the very competent ?transcription must remain. Williams himself alludes to the other two compositions (not for organ) which begin with bare octaves------the harsichord concerti for one and three instruments in Dm--both also transcriptions of violin works.

Finally ,Williams suggests we might look at people like Kittel and Krebs as the possible composer-arrangers and he makes the plea that we should ?try to listen to the work with 'new ears'--stripping ourselves of the over-familiarity with drama, big orchestral sounds and the illusion that rhetoric requires noise and power to make its effect. The solo violin, as the performance completing the broadcast ?illustrates could be, in C18 terms, a fine rhetorical medium.

Nicholas Johnson wrote (August 13, 2008):
There may well be doubts about the Toccata and Fugue in D minor. However I think few for such monuments as Vater unser im Himmelreich BWV 682 with it's wonderful canon hidden in among the other parts. Surely only Bach could have continued this for 90 odd bars over six pages.

Mary wrote (August 13, 2008):
[To Nicholas Johnson] Christoph Wolff makes his case for Bach's authorship of this in "Bach, the Learned Musician". My copy is currently unavailable, so I can't cite it directly, but as I recall he devotes an entire chapter this this piece.

BWV 565: Signature & Authenticity

William L. Hoffman wrote (August 14, 2008):
Bach's Signature Piece before the whole world is not by Bach! He must be decomposing it in the grave as we are deconstructing it. And even Georg Friedrich may be having a good laugh from his vantage.

In 2003, our Bgraduate seminar at the University of New Mexico, focusing on Wolff's Biography as our text, spent one entire session on BWV 565, reviewing the sources just mentioned in BCW. At that time, Wolff had only specific references to two of its features, and the musical example in the appendix.

Our conclusion: What is authenticity? Are variations, parodies, pasticcios, borrowings, paraphrases, mottos, improvisations and cadenzas not authentic in their own right? Our group scenerio: Bach had many organ-composition students and this was the primary source for the transmission of his organ works. There are many examples of alternate reworkings and it's not always possible to tell where Sebastian leaves off and others take over (as Williams observes). Perhaps, Sebastian and his students modified, altered, transform or even made merry quodlibits, although I don't think they vocalized in class. Also, the work's Italian violinistic elements could have been a challenge to Bach and his students. Maybe the original source came to Bach through Pisendel or Heinichen, challenging them to adapt it for organ. Remember, Bach in Weimar did some amazing adaptations of Vivaldi, Torelli, Correlli, etc. And, it's possible that history here is a trick which the living played on the dead or verse-visa.

At any rate, our class continued to the end of the semester to find a replacement for Bach's Signature Piece and, alas, we couldn't.

Douglas Cowling wrote (August 14, 2008):
William L. Hoffman wrote:
> At any rate, our class continued to the end of the semester to find a replacement for Bach's Signature Piece and, alas, we couldn't. <
The only challenger would be the Minuet in G, although most people couldn't identify Bach as the composer. Alas, I think it's also misattributed.

Diana Ross?

TOCCATA and FUGUE in d minor!

J (poundcam) wrote (February 19, 2009):
An awesome performance based on the famous Organ Toccata and Fugue and D minor of J.S. Bach. Enjoy!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Mtm6GqpPW8

I will upload it to mp3 files also for those of you who might want to throw it onto your ipods etc.

If you are interested in the rest of the CD, I have it, just drop me an e-mail.

Shawn Carton wrote (February 19, 2009):
[To J] I thought we decided this wasn't really by Bach...

Evan Cortens wrote (February 19, 2009):
[To Shawn Charton] Well, Peter Williams raises some serious doubts... but I think the jury is still out. The provenance of the sources is shaky to be sure, but this is one of those things that, barring the discovery of new evidence, I don't think will ever be solved definitively.

John Garside wrote (February 19, 2009):
[To J] Proof!
DNFTT

J (poundcam) wrote (February 19, 2009):
[To John Garside] What does DNFTT mean? I keep seeing it all over the place...

J (poundcam) wrote (February 20, 2009):
[To Evan Cortens] Did Peter Williams also take this video into account and did he bother to consult with the producers as to their sources and possible evidence regarding this issue? I am sure he did NOT! I think he might just have the key to your provenance problem! Peace out!

Evan Cortens wrote (February 20, 2009):
[To J] Well there you go, just the sort of new evidence I had in mind!

BWV 564, Toccata, Adagio, and Fugue

Ed Myskowski wrote (August 27, 2009):
Although this particular work is not part of the scheduled BRML discusion of works for organ for summer 2009, it is in the range, I heard a performance last evening, and I hear a link to BCML discussion of Bachs musical characterization of Satan.

Notes with Brilliant Classics Bach Edition suggest this is a Weimar compostion ca. 1709, which I would call youthful Bach. Of course, from my perspective, I would also call Leipzig 1723 youthful Bach. Judging from results, so would Bach.

It is quite a thrill to hear such a work for the first time. I took the opportunity to listen to the Hagius recording from Bach Edition in advance, but that simply does not prepare one for the impact of the opening riffs on a spectacular organ. Two five note phrases separated by a four note rest, all 1/16ths. I got that from the BWV incipit, post facto. Could be Be-Bop, could be buffo Satan, but in fact it is Bach, for sure.

The performance by Raul Prieto Ramirez (b. 1979, oh my soul!) played from memory, was one of those experiences which changes ones life just a bit. See http:www.mmmh.org for details of the venue and instrument, Methuen Memorial Music Hall. Raul was very articulate, despite English as a secong language. He pointed out that the opening themes of the piece remind him of Daedulus (I hope he did not say Icarus!) from Greek mythology, soaring high and coming Bach to Earth. This became clear, which I would never catch from a recording, when the second theme comes in on pedals only, after the Boppy riffs.

In addition to some of the thoughts from the Brandenburg discussions, I would also propose BWV 564 as fodder for discussion re Bach the Innovator.

Other pieces of interest, if not relevance:
Spanish (Aragon actually, as distinct from Castille) Baroque, ca. 1640: Tiento partido sobre la letania de la Virgen (Thirty pieces about the litany of the Virgin) by Pablo Bruna, arranged Bruno Forst (b. 1965). Sounded ancient, compared to the preceding Bach, perhaps that was the point of the programming? Numerologic significance? 2x3x5? Capital letter on Virgin? Ask your mother.

The piece was composed specifically in the city of Saragossa (spanish Zeragoza), which is famous for its siege by Napoleon ca. 1808, and its tower. That tower was the model for the tower at the Methuen Hall. Perhaps that was the point of the programming.

Max Reger, Chorale Fantasia, Op 40/2 (1899), <Straf mich nicht in deinem Sorn>. I did not yet take the time to see if Bach also set this Chorale, and what the relation to Reger might be. It sounded German, perhaps even Lutheran, in performance. Raul said that despite the title, he finds a bit of happiness (not to say Spanishness) in it.

Terejia wrote (August 28, 2009):
OT greeting after long absense Re: BWV 564, Toccata, Adagio, and Fugue

Ed Myskowski wrote:
>> It is quite a thrill to hear such a work for the first time. I took the opportunity to listen to the Hagius recording from Bach Edition in advance, but that simply does not prepare one for the impact of the opening riffs on a spectacular organ. Two five note phrases separated by a four note rest, all 1/16ths. I got that from the BWV incipit, post facto. Could be Be-Bop, could be buffo Satan, but in fact it is Bach, for sure.<<
Dear Ed and dear all,

Firstly I have to admit my long absense from the list and deep apology to all those who wrote to me off-list without my reply, which should be long due.

Yes, as Ed says, the impact of live organ performance cannot compete with listening to recordings. BWV564 is a piece I'd like to learn someday. Recently my organ lesson focus has been on organ chorales of J.S.Bach.

I have to confess that my music listening deviated from J.S. Bach to french baroque such as LeClair, Couprin etcs. Not that I lost interest to Bach cantatas. I simply find it too difficult for my poor ability to concentrate on complicated mathematical musical structure and profound evangelical messages under current busy schedule which demands concentration and Japanese summer-too humid, too hot, too uncomfortable to concentrate! So I just found myself listening to french baroque recently. I will come back to Bach when summer heat/humidity is gone.

Now, I find that my criterium for my preference is very different in french music and Bach. For the former, I prefer "spirituEl" elements while in the latter I prefer"spirituAl" elements. Leipzig Gewandthouse/St. Thomas Choir, Karl Richter performance style would be my last choice(although to the best of my knowledge I don't know they ever performed any french baroque so this is subjunctive sentense) while it is my first choice in Bach.

I haven't heard enough to discuss in detail, but I like french baroque performance when trills, figuratives are played with eland gracefullness.

I wish you all the best to all. I have to get back to preparing for my next court case.

Terejia wrote (August 28, 2009):
Terejia wrote:
>> Yes, as Ed says, the impact of live organ performance cannot compete with listening to recordings. <<
Oh, I didn't mean it to be an objective statement, which would sound very offensive if I were a receiver-deeply sorry for lack of my attention. I meant, "in my own humble personal experience," as a matter of course.

BWV 564 is a beautiful C-dur piece with 3 components. My personal taste prefers non-vibrate in soprano part in the 2nd part of the piece.

Ed Myskowski wrote (August 28, 2009):
Buffo Satan [WAS BWV 564]

Terejia wrote:
> I will come back to Bach when summer heat/humidity is gone. <
It is very nice to hear from Terejia again, I look forward to continuing posts, re Bach. Some readers may recall the many original thoughts she brought to us several months ago, and especially her expressive use of English, not her native language. I complimented her on this quality at the time. I do not believe I called her language poetic, but I would have if I had thought of it.

I am continuing my post re BWV 564 on both lists because of my buffo Satan suggestion (cited by Terejia), which is in fact more relevant to the cantata texts and music. In fact, the idea (buffo Satan in Bach) originated some time ago with Julian Mincham, I believe in discussion with Doug Cowling, and came up again recently from Julian.

My suggestion of the opening riffs of BWV 564 as satanic was not especially well thought out, but on further reflection I think it may have been intended by organist Raul Prieto Ramirez. His concert which opened with BWV 564 concluded with an arrangement for organ of a Liszt Mephisto Waltz. As Raul told the story of the music, the Devil attends a weddding. Once everyone has had sufficient drink, he takes a violin from the band, plays the waltz which sends all the guests into a trance, and runs off with the bride! Buffo, indeed, to my thinking, and making a nice frame for the concert, along with the opening Bach.

Terejia wrote (September 10, 2009):
Ed Myskowski wrote:
> It is very nice to hear from Terejia again, <
Thank you, Ed, for your kind words.

(..)
> I am continuing my post re BWV 564 on both lists because of my buffo Satan suggestion (cited by Terejia), which is in fact more relevant to the cantata texts and music. In fact, the idea (buffo Satan in Bach) originated some time ago with Julian Mincham, I believe in discussion with Doug Cowling, and came up again recently from Julian.
My suggestion of the opening riffs of BWV 564 as satanic was not especially well thought out, but on further reflection I think it may have been intended by organist Raul Prieto Ramirez. <
Some cantata arias have characteristics which may well be associated with snake-Satan appropriately. I still doubt whether or not BWV 564 opening is satanic. It could be. I have more live performance experience than recording experience in regard with BWV564 but I can also recall a live performance in which this part felt more like an aspiration toward heaven rather than satanic buffo. It would depend on performer, the choice of organ stops, in my humble impression.

Not every merisma is satanic buffo, but on the subject of BWV 248-part 4, it is true that penultinate tenor aria with two solo violins has a contrasting effect with soprano aria with echo, which has much pastrale serenity flavor, and subsequent bass arioso with soprano chorale, which is also in a peaceful mood.

Ed Myskowski wrote (September 10, 2009):
Terejia replied to my post:
>> My suggestion of the opening riffs of BWV 564 as satanic was not especially well thought out, >>but on further reflection I think it may have been intended by organist Raul Prieto Ramirez. <<
> Some cantata arias have characteristics which may well be associated with snake-Satan >appropriately. I still doubt whether or not BWV 564 opening is satanic. It > could be. I have more live performance experience than recording experience in regard with >BWV564 but I can also recall a live performance in which this part > felt more like an aspiration toward heaven rather than satanic buffo. It would depend on >performer, the choice of organ stops, in my humble impression. <
I do not find the idea of aspiration toward heaven incompatible with Satan, especially a buffo Satan. Consider:

Isaiah 14:14 [God quoting the thoughts, presumably of Satan (not specifically identified?)]
<I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.>

Terejia is in agreement with organist Ramirez, who specifically noted that BWV 564 could be heard as an ascent, followed by a descent to Earth. He specifically made the analogy of the flight of Dedalus, but perhaps this is simply less controversial than any Christian imagery. Note my previous mention that the concert, after opening with Bach (whatever the interpretation of the riffs), closed with a very specifically buffo Satan: Liszt, Mephisto Waltz.