Eighteen (Leipzig) Chorales BWV 651-668
Discussions - Part 1

Organ Chorales from the Leipzig Manuscript BWV 651-668 [BeginnersBach]

Jack Botelho wrote (April 28, 2005):
I generally have little internet time to explore some subjects with regard to Bach, but considering this list may benefit with some posts, the following are some general questions with regard to Bach's works for pipe organ:

Before the days of powering pipe organs with wind pressure with electricity, is it true that manual bellows resulted in a general swell in pitch, say close to one quarter or even one half step, over as much as a 2 or 3 second interval? Whenever I listen to a pipe organ recording of ancient (over 100 year old music), I tend to have the idea it should have the effect of listening to bag pipes from a long distance.

With regard to the subject title, I have lately been listening to BWV 651-668 played by Wolfgang Rubsam on Naxos 8.550901 and 8.550927: marvelous organ chorales orginally composed in Weimar and re-worked by Bach during the late 1740s. How long has Rubsam been recording Bach's organ works? What do members think of his playing? (Please excuse the English script).

Bradley Lehman wrote (April 28, 2005):
Jack Botelho wrote:
> Before the days of powering pipe organs with wind pressure with electricity, is it true that manual bellows resulted in a general swell in pitch, say close to one quarter or even one half step, over as much as a 2 or 3 second interval? <
No, not that much. There's sometimes a little hitch in the pitch during other events, such as the striking of a large chord elsewhere on the manual, but the stabilizers then correct it quickly. The hand-pumped bellows are still just feeding a reservoir whose pressure is controlled by gravity and other physical forces: pretty much the same way that blower-driven windchests work, too. The bellows aren't blowing the pipes directly, whether it's humans or electricity running it.

A couple of years ago I did a concert on an 1802 organ where we did the whole concert hand-pumped; I felt as if the whole balcony was breathing with me and the instrument, and it was a delightful experience. It encourages supple phrasing and flexible tempo, listening to what the instrument is doing and reacting to it.

> With regard to the subject title, I have lately been listening to BWV 651-668 played by Wolfgang Rubsam on Naxos 8.550901 and 8.550927: marvelous organ chorales originally composed in Weimar and re-worked by Bach during the late 1740s. How long has Rubsam been recording Bach's organ works? What do members think of his playing? (Please excuse the English script). <
He did a Philips set of almost all the Bach works in the 1970s, and the Naxos set is his second go at it. He also recorded a complete Buxtehude a long time ago, and quite a bit of other repertoire. I like the way he allows the phrasing to breathe, bringing out his accents through timing. I've met him a couple of times and attended his recitals. Terrific musician and a kind individual.

Bradley Lehman wrote (April 28, 2005):
>> With regard to the subject title, I have lately been listening to BWV 651-668 played by Wolfgang Rubsam on Naxos 8.550901 and 8.550927: marvelous organ chorales orginally composed in Weimar and re-worked by Bach during the late 1740s. How long has Rubsam been recording Bach's organ works? What do members think of his playing? (Please excuse the English script). <<
> He did a Philips set of almost all the Bach works in the 1970s, and the Naxos set is his second go at it. <
I should add: he started the Naxos series on Bayer Records and then licensed it over, doing a couple of the piano records again in the process. He also did an early Naxos single disc of isolated Bach organ favorites (in a slimline case with different style of artwork, etc) before commencing the formal series and re-recording those items. That was before Naxos itself really took off.

Jack Botelho wrote (April 28, 2005):
Jack Botelho wrote:
>> Before the days of powering pipe organs with wind pressure with electricity, is it true that manual bellows resulted in a general swell in pitch, say close to one quarter or even one half step, over as much as a 2 or 3 second interval? <<
Bradley Lehman wrote:
> No, not that much. There's sometimes a little hitch in the pitch during other events, such as the striking of a large chord elsewhere on the manual, but the stabilizers then correct it quickly. The hand-pumped bellows are still just feeding a reservoir whose pressure is controlled by gravity and other physical forces: pretty much the same way that blower-driven windchests work, too. The bellows aren't blowing the pipes directly, whether it's humans or electricity running it.
A couple of years ago I did a concert on an 1802 organ where we did the whole concert hand-pumped; I felt as if the whole balcony was breathing with me and the instrument, and it was a delightful experience. It encourages supple phrasing and flexible tempo, listening to what the instrument is doing and reacting to it. <
Incredible! Do you think any record labels will go for the idea of recording the Bach organ oeuvre with hand pumped instruments? Would it be correct to assume the results on record with such instruments would depart very significantly from the electrically-modified pipe organs? Would the results differ more so on their own than played in the Bach temperament alone?

Thanks for your input on Rubsam!
I like his playing very much too.

Bradley Lehman wrote (April 28, 2005):
Bradley Lehman wrote:
> A couple of years ago I did a concert on an 1802 organ where we did the whole concert hand-pumped; I felt as if the whole balcony was breathing with me and the instrument, and it was a delightful experience. It encourages supple phrasing and flexible tempo, listening to what the instrument is doing and reacting to it. <
Jack Botelho wrote:
> Incredible! Do you think any record labels will go for the idea of recording the Bach organ oeuvre with hand pumped instruments? Would it be correct to assume the results on record with such instruments would depart very significantly from the electrically-modified pipe organs? Would the results differ more so on their own than played in the Bach temperament alone? <
I think the temperament matters quite a bit more, overall, than the momentary effects of variable winding. The temperament affects sustained harmonies *and* the shape of melody, and the basic "color" of the sound.

And variable winding is also used, sometimes, in organs where the wind is being supplied by electricity. As I remarked yesterday, that's a [deliberate] feature of the reservoir/windchest construction, and not directly a result of hand bellows vs electricity.

Jack Botelho wrote (April 29, 2005):
Jack Botelho wrote:
> With regard to the subject title, I have lately been listening to BWV 651-668 played by Wolfgang Rubsam on Naxos 8.550901 and 8.550927: marvelous organ chorales orginally composed in Weimar and re-worked by Bach during the late 1740s. <
Would it be more appropriate to state that Bach did not compose "organ chorales", but rather "variations on chorale hymns/melodies"? I post this in the interests of attempting to provide a more accurate discussion of the subject matter. Please excuse this re-post.

Thanks for the reply regarding Bach-temperament vs hand-pumped results for the Bach pipe organ listener, Brad!

Donald Satz wrote (April 29, 2005):
[To Jack Botelho, in response to his recent message above] I think the best title to give them is "Leipzig Chorales". They aren't really variations.

Jack Botelho wrote (April 30, 2005):
[To Bradley Lehman, in response to his recent message above] I suppose my line of questioning approaches the old debate of historically authentic performance vs what is frequently termed "modern" performance practice. I have a very difficult time understanding what "modern" performance means. As far as I know, unless I live in a time-space warp, all digitally recorded music is a modern phenomenon. But not to be obtuse about this - I think this debate hingeson the intentions of the composer. It is well known that certain composers were disatisfied with certain musicians (A Scarlatti with regard to horn players, for example), for not hitting notes at notated pitch (whatever that pitch is, is another matter) in relation to the overall score. It is clear to me a difference caused by temperament as practiced by the composer in question makes a very significant difference, but plain old technical problems with regard to certain instruments of the period (often blamed on the musicians) having difficulty reproducing what is notated on the page is (or irregularities as such) - that such technical improvements to instruments would have been welcomed by baroque composers en masse: indeed instrument modification was common during Bach's age anyway.

Thanks for the clarification with regard to the "Leipzig Chorales", Don!

Jack Botelho wrote (May 5, 2005):
[To Donald Satz] Just to reply more completely to this: the 'Leipzig Chorales' are certainly not variations or partite diverse, but in common with other chorales of Bach, to use an approximate description in English, 'treatments' of chorale melodies. Keith Anderson in the notes to the Naxos set of Bach organ works uses this term, in any case.

What makes Wolfgang Rubsam one of the great Bach organists?
From a layperson's perspective, he employs very slight hesitations or delays before the introduction of pedals, chords, and other major tonal changes, it seems. The result of these very slight delays is to allow the contours of the work space to breathe, and stimulates the seasoned Bach organ listener to hear these works afresh, without rushing through the pieces.

With regard to the total extant corpus of Bach works typically designated for pipe organ, it would seem to to fit on something less than 20cds, very roughly. At first this may seem a large amount of music for the beginning listener, but once broken down into preludes, toccatas, fugues, partitas, variations, chorales, etc. actually very approachable. Without a doubt, JS Bach's organ works stand as a monumental achievement for music for the pipe organ, the king of instruments.

PS The above was written very quickly - please excuse any errors and unnecessary generalities.