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George Frideric Handel & Bach
Discussions - Part 3 |
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Continue from Part 2 |
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Foreign Akzents in Mr. Handel's Musick |
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Michael Cox wrote (November 20, 2010):
Foreign Akzents in Mr. Hendel's Musick
In the "olden days", long before the modern "authentic baroque" movement gained ground, English choirs sang Bach in English and German choirs sang Händel's music in German. And Swedish and Finnish choirs sang both Bach and Handel in their respective mother tongues.
It is well known from contemporary accounts that Handel never mastered English pronunciation but retained a strong German accent. It is, however, debatable whether he could actually hear the difference between various accents and so chose his soloists accordingly. For instance, he imported Italian singers for his Italian operas. I suppose that his English soloists pronounced Italian sufficiently well to satisfy Il caro Sassone.
In modern commercial recordings of Handel's English oratorios, it seems fashionable to use at least one soloist whose mother tongue is not English - be that soloist Swedish, German or French.
Anne Sofie von Otter, the famous Swedish mezzo-soprano, in Handel's Messiah (Augér, von Otter, Chance, Crook, Tomlinson, English Concert, Pinnock) demonstrates faultless English pronunciation. But when she speaks English rather than singing she has a very slight Swedish accent.
By contrast, in another recording a certain French soprano sings of "shepherds abeeding in the field". This is an example of not knowing how a word is to be pronounced rather than not being able to do so.
On the same recording an eminent German counter-tenor sings of the "Mun of sorrows".. who "gave his buck to the smiters". A singer from the north of England would in fact pronounce the words like this in speech, but would adopt southern English pronunciation when singing classical music. To an American it might sound like giving a bribe!
This unfortunate mispronunciation would seem to have arisen because in German the vowel "a" is pronounced differently from in English.
In (British) English speech, but not in French or German, unstressed vowels are shortened to "shwa" (a neutral middle vowel, as in the first and last syllables of "composer") or "i" (as in "dispised and rijected")
The vowel "e" might be pronounced as "i" even in stressed syllables, as in "Inglish".
When I was a choirboy in the 1960s we were taught that these shortened vowels should be "opened" when singing, especially in older music (e.g. Tudor, Elizabethan, Purcell and Handel anthems), paying greater attention to the spelling.
So, to take the example mentioned above, "dispised and rijected" should follow the spelling more closely: "des - pi - zed and ri/e - jec -ted".
However, I have never heard, either live or on recording, a foreign soloist observing this convention. Even native English-speakers do not always do so.
Another example is more commonly heard:
The word "nations" is to be sung as "nay - shons" not as "nay -shns".
If we want (do we?) something like an "authentic" pronunciation of Handelian English, we certainly don't need to adopt a German accent, but perhaps we should pay more attention to the spelling , especially of vowels.
I would assume that something similar applies to foreigners singing Bach in German. And that is why I prefer to hear, on recordings repeatedly listened to, a German-speaking choir rather than a French, English or Finnish one.
Finally, as we are approaching the Christmas season, and our choir is already practising Advent and Christmas music, an example of English pronunciation.
In the 1960s my church choir recorded an LP of Christmas music. In one of the carols one of the other choirboys sang the following line:
"There was mickle melody at that childès birth".
The way he sang it was:
""There was mickle melody at that child'(i)s bath".
I think that "childès" should have been pronounced like "chilled-ez". (Incidentally the word "children" is a double plural (child-childer-childeren).
I quote this not to make fun of the choirboy but to show that a recording can stick in one's mind for 50 years. So, if we are singers, especially of Bach and Handel, let us make every effort to "get it right" first time! |
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Ed Myskowski wrote (November 21, 2010):
Michael Cox wrote:
< On the same recording an eminent German counter-tenor sings of the "Mun of sorrows".. who "gave >his buck to the smiters". A singer from the north of England would in fact pronounce the words >like this in speech, but would adopt southern English pronunciation when singing classical >music. To an American it might sound like giving a bribe! >
I could be had.
MC:
< So, to take the example mentioned above, "dispised and rijected" should follow the spelling more closely: "des - pi - zed and ri/e - jec -ted". >
EM:
I will watch for this, some coming year when I next go out for another live Messiah. Everyone seems to get <acquainted with grief> spot on.
MC:
< I would assume that something similar applies to foreigners singing Bach in German. And that is why I prefer to hear, on recordings repeatedly listened to, a German-speaking choir rather than a French, English or Finnish one. >
EM:
I think I raised this point, as an aside, previously. Can you cite an example of a choir whose accent is so uniform, and wrong, that it is offensive? Is it not enough trouble just to get them to sing the same note?
MC:
< I think that "childès" should have been pronounced like "chilled-ez". (Incidentally the word "children" is a double plural (child-childer-childeren). >
EM:
No way to keep those childers from multiplying, no?
I happened to be listening to a CD of Max van Egmond singing Schubert and Schumann last evening. It was recorded just a couple years ago, toward the climax of a long and distinguished career. I believe he varies his German pronunciation slightly, from one point to another, to fit the music and the adjacent text. Or is that just a Dutch accent? |
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Michael Cox wrote (November 21, 2010):
[To Ed Myskowski] I'm sorry that I don't quite understand what you mean by "I could be had".
What I wrote was intentionally provocative. In Britain a "buck" is primarily a deer, rather than a dollar.
I have heard many "foreigners" singing Handel and Bach in 50 years of choir singing and regular concert attendance. One Irish tenor living in Finland actually deliberately put on an Irish accent in one scene in one of Handel's English oratorios (I forget which) for comic effect.
When I was a choirboy we choirboys deliberately mispronounced words for "fun" - "most highly flavoured lady" was one of the most common examples. The choirmaster was so accustomed to it that he let it pass, providing we didn't sing it like that in public!
I remember as a boy owning an Italian recording of excerpts from Messiah - 'Andel's 'Allelujah chorus was totally garbled. I couldn't listen to it.
Here's a French performance - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Fu8YIG8uyQ I can't hear any "aitches". The article "the" is indistinct and "King of Kings" sounds a little like "Keeng of Keengs". I find this French performance charming, but it's not how I would want my choir to pronounce the words.
Few of us have the luxury of a totally professional choir. In Finland there is only the National Opera Choir and the Finnish Radio Choir, although I think the latter has had to be partly amateurized for lack of funds.
The chamber choir in which I presently sing is an amateur one, but our soloists and orchestra are professionals. All are Finnish except for me and an Estonian lady. I find that I have to pay so much attention to pronouncing Finnish words correctly that I have little time to think what they mean.
If our premise is that liturgical and religious music is/was intended to enhance and illustrate the meaning of the words - "the Word" in the Lutheran sense - then it is vital that the words are pronounced distinctly. When we recorded an Estonian work we needed special linguistic coaching from an Estonian lady, but still you - I mean "one" - can hear that we're not an Estonian cho. And we have sung Bach in German in Germany together with a German choir. I don't remember that they criticised our German pronunciation, at least not openly, but in rehearsals I have tried to correct obvious mistakes. One lady commented about aspirated plosives "but it's so hard!"
You mention Max van Egmond and a Dutch accent. The first recording of the St. Matthew Passion that I ever owned was performed by a Dutch ensemble, so one could say that I learned Dutch pronunciation of German as normative from an early age (I still think that few if any evangelists have surpassed Willy van Hese)
J.S. Bach: Matthäus Passion
Matthäus-Passion BWV 244
Piet van Egmond
Amsterdam Oratorium Choir & Boys Choir of the Vredescholen / Rotterdam Chamber Orchestra
Soprano: Corry Bijster; Alto: Annie Delorie; Tenor: Willy van Hese; Bass: Carel Willink
MMS (Musical Masterpieces Society) / Concert Hall Society
1955
3-LP / TT: 191:56
Recorded at Oude kerk (Old Church), Amsterdam, Holland.
1st recording of Matthäus-Passion BWV 244 by P.v. Egmond.
<> |
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Glen Armstrong wrote (November 21, 2010):
[To Michael Cox] As one of the most uninformed people who read this site, I can assure you that your intimate knowledge and way of conveyance are only enhanced by any non-standard spellings -- in fact, I regard them as an additional bonus. If you are off-topic, I do hope Aryeh sees your charm and experiences as reason enough to make exceptions. Your enthusiasm is a delight -- not to mention your intimate knowledge garnered over many years. I can hardly wait for Ed to express his pleasure in your posts. Many thanks for enriching me. |
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Ed Myskowski wrote (November 22, 2010):
Michael Cox wrote:
< I'm sorry that I don't quite understand what you mean by "I could be had". >
An American colloquial expression, meaning <I could be swayed by a bribe.> Just a humorous response to your mention of a bribe. |
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Michael Cox wrote (November 22, 2010):
[To Glen Armstrong] Thank you so much for your kind words.
Having had to retire from my profedssional work as a translator, my doctor recommended that I write about something that I'm interested in and fairly knowledgabale (sorry!) about as a form of therapy to help restore brain cells and fight depression - and music itself can also be ane effective form of therapy. I'm only glad that other people are interested, even if geographically separated.
Incidentally, it would be nice to have a little more info about who is writing, and from what persective.
I've sent something today about W. F. Bach, and I'm working on something about the B Minor Mass (BWV 232). |
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Ed Myskowski wrote (November 23, 2010):
Michael Cox wrote:
< Incidentally, it would be nice to have a little more info about who is writing, and from what persective. >
Although it takes a bit of digging, there is plenty of info in the BCW archives. |
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Doubling |
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Douglas Cowling wrote (December 20, 2010):
Peter Smaill wrote:
< The only parallel from Bach's world I can think of is his very late Passion-Pasticcio based on St Mark's Gospel. Here he places Handel's aria "Wisch ab der Traenen scharfe Lauge" ("wipe away the tears' bitter brine") at the vital penultimate position in the work and in this case Handel sets the soloist in unison with instruments. >
Handel occasionally used solo with instrumental doubling for rather bravura effects. There's the famous aria in "Alcina" in which has an extended da capo aria with only a single line sung by the soprano and doubled by the violins -- no bass or continuo until the coda. If I recall there's also a doubled aria in "La Resurresione." |
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[HANDEL-L] GFH, da capo |
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Les Robarts wrote (January 19, 2011):
Well, well. So GFH gets it in the neck for all those da capo arias.
I reached for the nearest JSB score on the shelf nearest my computer and grasped hold of Cantatas 140, 141, and 142. A pseudo-random sample, of course, but in these brief works we find one dal segno chorus (Wachet auf), four da capo arias, one dal segno aria and two dal segno duets, and a chorale which includes repeats. Through-composed numbers are very few. [Is there some aural echo of Mercurio's "Sol prova contenti" from Atalanta (composed 1721) and "Mein Freund ist mein", a dal segno duet from Cantata 140 (Wachet auf)? Dean tells us that the Handel motif derives from Telemann. Now, as GFH and Telemann when young sparred with each other, improvising and playing around with each other's ideas, who is to say that anything GFH seems to have 'borrowed' from Telemann originates with Telemann? In literature this sort of reminiscence can be classed as intertextual, whereas in musicology it's a 'borrowing'...]
Should this pattern of da capo arias and duets persist in the rest of JSB's vocal oeuvre, I maintain that JSB too should be hurled from the composers' Olympus. Unless, that is, there is one rule for GFH and another for the rest.
Thank you, David, for the advanced information about your forthcoming book. Looks to be full of good things. I'm already negotiating a loan... |
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Staged Oratorios |
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Douglas Cowling wrote (November 4, 2011):
Listers with an interest in modern staged productions of Baroque oratorios will enjoy this strangely compelling reworking of Handel's "Messiah" by the Theater an der Wien:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19ZISWVW60I&feature=related |
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Sacred turned to Profane |
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Douglas Cowling wrote (January 3, 2012):
I think I'm turning into an 18th century prig.
I was scandalized to hear Handel's "Zadok the Priest" reused in the Met's production of its pseudo-Baroque pastiche, "The Enchanted Island" (close to the end of the clip)
http://video.nytimes.com/video/2012/01/01/arts/100000001256282/metropolitan-pastiche.html
I may send my troops to close the opera house. Or least banish Placido Domingo for impiety. |
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Kim Patrick Clow wrote (January 3, 2012):
Douglas Cowling wrote:
< I think I'm turning into an 18th century prig.
I was scandalized to hear Handel's "Zadok the Priest" reused in the Met's production of its pseudo-Baroque pastiche, "The Enchanted Island" (close to the end of the clip)
http://video.nytimes.com/video/2012/01/01/arts/100000001256282/metropolitan-pastiche.html >
Was great though how they used it.
< I may send my troops to close the opera house. Or least banish Placido Domingo for impiety. >
Just make sure they have passports going through customs, eh? ;) |
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Ed Myskowski wrote (January 4, 2012):
Douglas Cowling wrote:
< I think I'm turning into an 18th century prig. >
That would explain a lot!:) |
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OT: GFH, JSB -- SDG; (Handel, Bach -- Soli Deo Gloria) |
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Bruce Simonson wrote (March 3, 2012):
I'm lucky to be in the middle of preparing Handel's Messiah for a performance at the end of April. In my studies, I know I came across (somewhere) a version of a conducting score where SDG (Soli Deo Gloria) is placed on the final page.
And there's this: http://www.tutorgig.info/ed/Messiah_(Handel)
(look for the write-up on SDG in the middle of the web page).
I'll post the last page of the Handel's Messiah autograph, downloaded from IMSLP. I can't find SDG on this page of the autograph (maybe someone can point it out to me; I'm surely no expert at these holographs).
An interesting question, for me, is, did Handel really do this, i.e., put SDG and, for example, JJ, in his autographs? Clearly Bach did this, but did Handel? |
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Neil Mason wrote (March 4, 2012):
[To Bruce Simonson] I seem to recall there are four autograph scores of Messiah. |
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Kim Patrick Clow wrote (March 4, 2012):
Bruce Simonson wrote:
< (look for the write-up on SDG in the middle of the web page).
I'll post the last page of the Handel's Messiah autograph, downloaded from IMSLP. I can't find SDG on this page of the autograph (maybe someone can point it out to me; I'm surely no expert at holographs).
An interesting question, for me, is, did Handel really do this, i.e., put SDG and, for example, JJ, in his autographs? Clearly Bach did this, but did Handel? >
More than likely, yes. A lot of baroque composers did that. |
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Andrew Shryock wrote (March 4, 2012):
[To Bruce Simonson] While I'm unaware of four autograph scores of Messiah, the autograph I am familiar with does contain the "S.D.G." inscription. If you're consulting the Chrysander facsimile, which you uploaded and is available through IMSLP, it will appear on p. 260; that is, the final measures of the "Amen" chorus at the conclusion of Part 3. (The facsimile continues to p. 350 with revisions and other material. This may be a cause for confusion.) More
specifically, Handel squeezed in "S.D.G." below the second through fourth bars of the basso continuo line and above the text "Fine dell'oratorio."
Meanwhile, "S.D.G." is a common feature in Handel's oratorio autographs. See, for example, Jephtha (1751). I mention Jephtha specifically because the Chrysander facsimile is also available on IMSLP. "S.D.G." may
be seen on p. 268.
For additional instances, I recommend consulting Donald Burrows and Martha J. Ronish, A Catalogue of Handel's Musical Autographs (Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1994), which I believe includes this information in the autograph reports.
Hope this helps, |
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Ed Myskowski wrote (March 4, 2012):
Neil Mason wrote:
< I seem to recall there are four autograph scores of Messiah. >
There is an excellent recording providing all(?) the variants, including clear documentation in the booklet notes:
Handel Messiah, Nicholas McGegan, Harmonia Mundi, 1991.
If I read correctly, Handel put his hand (though not necessarily SDG and/or JJ) to all variants, nine distinct versions.
As Doug frequently reminds us, Handel (perhaps Bach as well?) was the consummate professional musician. What the client pays for, the client gets. JJ? No problem. |
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Ed Myskowski wrote (March 4, 2012):
Andrew Shryock wrote:
< For additional instances, I recommend consulting Donald Burrows and Martha J. Ronish, A Catalogue of Handel's Musical Autographs (Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1994), which I believe includes this information in the autograph reports. >
Apologies for referencing the 1991 McGegan CD before reading this post.
The recording remains highly recommended, although obviously not authoritative. |
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Bruce Simonson wrote (March 4, 2012):
Andrew Shryock wrote:
< While I'm unaware of four autograph scores of Messiah, the autograph I am familiar with does contain the "S.D.G." inscription. If you're consulting the Chrysander facsimile, which you uploaded and is available through IMSLP, it will appear on p. 260; that is, the final measures of the "Amen" chorus at the conclusion of Part 3. (The facsimile continues to p. 350 with revisions and other material. This may be a cause for confusion.) More specifically, Handel squeezed in "S.D.G." below the second through fourth bars of the basso continuo line and above the text "Fine dell'oratorio." >
Andrew, thank you, why yes, indeed, there it is. On the page I uploaded, I just missed it. It is rather spread out, over 3 measures, below the continuo part, but there it is. Thank you for pointing this out. |
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Douglas Cowling wrote (March 4, 2012):
Ed Myskowski wrote:
< If I read correctly, Handel put his hand (though not necessarily SDG and/or JJ) to all variants, nine distinct versions. >
If I recall, Handel also added the date as he finished each part of Messiah.Hogwood's biography isn't clear if this was his usual practice, but the chronology of his works is much more settled than Bach's who almost never dated his works. |
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Ed Myskowski wrote (March 4, 2012):
Douglas Cowling wrote:
< If I recall, Handel also added the date as he finished each part of Messiah. Hogwood's biography isn't clear if this was his usual practice, but the chronology of his works is much more settled than Bach's who almost never dated his works. >
This is a fascinating comparison. Is Dougs statement accurate, that Bach almost never dated his works? Perhaps he considered them all works in process, subject to reworking, until prepared for publication?
Bach does seem to have taken special care with the works for publication, which were then dated(?)
If I grasp the performance history of Messiah correctly (from a bit of superficial reading), Handel was pleasantly surprised by the positive reception of the work, indeed, it revitalized his career. He was more than happy to accommodate performance requirements.
Thanks to that, we have the inclusion of the soprano version (by Lorraine Hunt, later Lieberson) of the alto aria <He Was Despised> on the comprehensive 1991 McGegan CD (new to me in 2011). |
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Bruce Simonson wrote (March 5, 2012):
Bruce Simonson wrote:
<< An interesting question, for me, is, did Handel really do this, i.e., put SDG and, for example, JJ, in his autographs? Clearly Bach did this, but did Handel? >>
Kim Patrick Clow wrote:
< More than likely, yes. A lot of baroque composers did that. >
This SDG question continues to have some traction for me. I am surprised to hear that the practice of putting SDG at the end of an autograph score was not just done by Bach. (Just goes to show there are many things I do not know. Just add this particular factoid to a painfully large (and endlessly expanding) list of my ignorances! :) )
Just curious, does anyone know if this practice with SDG has been researched and documented?
I'd love to get a list of composers who are known to have put SDG on their compositions, and, even better, a list of specific compositions that have this on the autograph score. |
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Kim Patrick Clow wrote (March 5, 2012):
[To Bruce Simonson] Well, pretty much in all of the circa 1300+ surviving Graupner cantatas have it; I have made a screen-grab of one for you:
From the autograph score of "Sorget nicht für den andern Morgen" GWV 1156/26 (15th Sunday after Trinity, 1726 for 2 flutes, bassoon, strings, SATB, and continuo).
http://i.imgur.com/H8C0l.jpg |
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OT: 1888 recording of Handel |
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Kim Patrick Clow wrote (June 20, 2013):
Edison phonograph cylinders (1888): Handel - Israel in Egypt
Thought some on the list would find this pretty interesting. It's a very faint recording. But you get a sense of the music.
"On Friday 29th June 1888, from 2pm, a performance of Handel's oratorio Israel in Egypt was captured on a number of wax cylinder recordings. This performance was part of the trienniel Handel Festivals mounted in the UK. They were recorded from the press gallery in Crystal Palace by Edison-representative Colonel Gouraud, as a way to test and show off Edison's phonograph. Three of these cylinders still survive.
The conductor was Sir August Manns, conducting an orchestra of some 500 musicians and a choir of over 4,000 voices, in front of an audience of 23,722 people.
These are the earliest deliberate recordings of music known to exist (earlier recordings from the 1870s are considered lost). Fortunately these can be played back at a quite definite pitch, as we know the pitch of the Crystal Palace organ at this time." |
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BCW: G.F. Handel's opera Alcina - Revised & updated Discography |
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Aryeh Oron wrote (May 18, 2017):
It is known that J.S. Bach did not composed an opera. However, as a "learned musician" he was familiar with operas of his time. In second half the 1730's he even performed with his Collegium Musicum in Leipzig several operatic arias, including two arias from the opera Alcina of his great contemporary G.F. Handel.
The discography pages of Alcina on the BCW have been revised and updated. See:
Complete Recordings (34): http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Other/Handel-Alcina.htm
Recordings of the arias performed by J.S. Bach, which are not included in the complete recordings (13): http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Other/Handel-Alcina-RM.htm
I believe this is the most discography of Alcina. If you are aware of a recording of the opera missing from these pages, or want to correct/add details of a recording already presented on the BCW, please do not hesitate to inform me.
Enjoy, |
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Matthias Rademacher [HANDEL-L] wrote (May 19, 2017):
[To Aryeh Oron] Perhaps I did not understand what exactly was Your intention when compiling this list. A complete list of commercial recordings including at least one of Alcina arias in question must lead to about Hundert entries.
On first view I miss all the most important Alcina recordings that come to mind (Hickox, Christie, Curtis, Minkowski/DVD, Bolton, Sutherland/Bonynge, Sutherland/Leitner). |
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Aryeh Oron wrote (May 19, 2017):
[To Matthias Rademacher] There are two pages:
Complete recordings of the opera, both commercial (Hickox, Christie, Curtis, Minkowski/DVD, Bolton, Sutherland/Bonynge, Sutherland/Leitner, and many others) and non-commerical: http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Other/Handel-Alcina.htm
Recordings of the arias performed by J.S. Bach: http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Other/Handel-Alcina-RM.htm
Recordings of individual arias not performed by J.S. Bach are not included. |
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Matthias Rademacher wrote (May 21, 2017):
[To Aryeh Oron] Many thanks for the clarification. The other page looks fine from my side.
One note on the Goettingen recording: Was perfomed in "Deutsches Theater" ("Deutschen" is the dative of "Deutsches").
Additions:
The the first official release of the Leitner recording was Deutsche Grammophon 2 CD DG 477 8017. You do not mention this number.
Please add:
Alcina: Di, cor mio
Lynne Dawson, Lautten Compagney, Wolfgang Katschner
CD Berlin Classics, 0017572BC
Recorded in 2002
- - -
Alcina: Di, cor mio
Karina Gauvin, Tafelmusik, Jeanne Lamon
CD Analekta FL 2 3137
Recorded in 1999
- - -
Additionally there are also 2 abridged Alcina versions for children on CD, but I did not check if they contain the arias in question.
Die Zauberinsel der Alcina (Sung in German)
Alcina - Peggy Steiner, Sopran
Ruggiero -Jörg Waschinski, Sopranus
Bradamante - Judith Utke, Alt
Oronte - Yuhei Sato, Tenor
Melsso - Martin Schurbach, Baß
Oberto - Doerthe Sandmann, Sopran
Erzähler - Ekkehard Hahn
Kammer Sinfonia Berlin
Dir.: Oliver Pohl
CD DG Junior 449 595-2
Recorded in 1995, 50 min
- - -
EBERHARD STREUL: Spuk im HÄNDELhaus (Zauberoper für Kinder und Erwachsene nach HÄNDELs Alcina)
Musikbühne Mannheim
Alcina - Daniela Grundmann, Sopran
Christopher Brown - Markus Jäckle, Tenor
Andrea - Gerda M Eiselmair, Mezzo
Thomas White - Thomas Herberich, Bassbariton
Bob Smith - Volker Gütermann, Schauspieler
Recorded in 2002
CD www.musikbuehne-mannheim.de
60' |
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Aryeh Oron wrote (June 3, 2017):
[To Matthias Rademacher] Thanks for your input.
The corrections and additions you had suggested were implemented. See: http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Other/Handel-Alcina-RM.htm [M-3], [M-4]
One of the abridged versions for kids does not include the arias in question. See: http://www.tp4.rub.de/~ak/disc/jw/dgg449595.html
I have not found further info about the other. |
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Matthias Rademacher wrote (June 6, 2017):
Aryeh Oron werote:
< I have not found further info about the other. >
This was a nearly private edition sold by the artists after the performance, many years ago. You can find an information here that it is sold out: https://www.musikbuehne-mannheim.de/kinder-musikbuehne/cd-shop.html
When I find the CD and any information of value, I will contact You. |
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Listen to Brockes-Passion [HANDEL-L] |
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Matthias Rademacher wrote (October 16, 2019):
please listen to Brockes-Passion with Arcangelo from Wigmore Hall: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m000944j
<> |
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J. Vaughan wrote (October 16, 2019):
[To Matthias Rademacher] I was notified of this broadcast by one of its instrumentalists, and warned of some problems. The Daughter of Zion's first air is at a distance, and there might be other balance problems as well. The strings are one to a part, hopefully only due to the size of the stage, of which my correspondent also spoke along with there having had to be some cuts. As in the Academy of Ancient Music's recent performance/recording, I thought that the Daughter of Zion over-ornamented the second verse of her first air, but did not go far enough to hear her first da-capo. The male soloiists I heard seemed fine. This production is being recorded for later release.
<> |
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3rd Brockespassion release within halve a year [HANDEL-L] |
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Matthias Rademacher wrote (October 26, 2019):
here is the 3rd Brockes passion recording within halve a years: http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/brockes-passion/hnum/9446166 |
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J. Vaughan wrote (October 26, 2019):
[To Matthias Rademacher] So we have this one, with which I have become increasingly-familiar in recent days, and the Cummings. So which is the third? If it is the Mortensen, I think this has yet to be released, being due, if I recall rightly, in the Spring of next year. Although this Egarr may have much to commend it, notably a SUPERB accompanying book, my own favourite might remain the Cummings. |
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Aryeh Oron wrote (October 26, 2019):
[To J. Vaughan] The Mortensen is planned for release next month. See: Amazon.com |
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Matthias Rademacher wrote (October 27, 2019):
[To J. Vaughan] Mortensen was released last month. I thought this was stated here already: http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/cpo/detail/-/art/georg-friedrich-haendel-passion-nach-brockes/hnum/8992786
The expensive Egarr set contains some extras on a 3rd CD (alternative readings, Jennens traslation ... this might be the main selling point in English speaking countries perhaps). |
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J. Vaughan wrote (October 27, 2019):
[To Matthias Rademacher] You did indeed inform us of this recording some time back, but, if I recall correctly, I may have just checked my primary English outlet, which was not offering it at the time, but is now announcing it for 1 November. Further, the AAM book lists it for next year. Yet there it INDEED was, and, via the not-overly-lengthy sound samples, it is shown to differ at least somewhat from its two near-companions. Yet, unlike the Cummings, and a recent London performance in which possibly our newest colleague, Mr. Dewarte, participated, its opening chorus follows the text in the AAM recording, not based solely on the Bach manuscript while the AAM book states that it is based on that. As in the live London performances, we again have Bach-sized forces, with a small string band and a chorus seeming to be no more than two or three to a part. I still prefer the Cummings soloists overall, particularly Mr. Rupert Charlesworth's EXQUISITELY-sung Peter in my opinion, even if the one in the AAM outdoes him in characterization. And the soprano Daughter of Zion may not be exactly the singer that Miss Watts is, though her ornaments, from what I recall of them, may not be as extreme for me as hers are. Here I go with continuo again, but, since Mr. Cummings usually-follows the evidence re this in the London oratorios when performing them, one wonders how he arrived at his approach in his Brockes since the two other performances I have heard or sampled, based on the same Bach manuscript and presumably the same Carus edition of it, differ from what he does. I personally-prefer his approach, even though it differs from Handel's and his London practice, though wonder if he should be usihis organ more in the secco recitatives as these two other recordings, and indeed the live London performance, did. Mr. Duarte tells me that the organ is not mentioned in the Bach manuscript, and the harpsichord only when it is to be silenced. Is it mentioned in the Carus score? I MIGHT have to invest in the AAM as a download should I wish to compare the instrumental parts between the sources as a whole and the Bach manuscript since the AAM book, and possibly the booklet with the Cummings, make reference to changes Bach et al? made to meet with performing conditions in Leipzig. |
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Handel and Bach 'Borrowings' from Each Other [Handel-e] |
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Tony Watts wrote (March 6, 2020):
Silas Wollston in Handel News (No.69, May 2017) contrasted Bach’s extensive use of ‘self-borrowing’ with Handel’s considerable additional use of music by other composers. He entertainingly cited Jonathan Swift’s colourful contrast between the spider and the bee, with the self-reliant spider accusing the bee of indiscriminately plundering nature to gather the nectar it needs for its livelihood, and the eclectic bee accusing the spider of producing with ‘over-weening pride’ more ‘excrement and venom’ from its innards.
Yet Bach did ‘borrow’ from Handel. Ruth Smith in Handel News (No.74, January 2019) stated that: ‘Bach knew and had a copy (partly copied out by himself) of Handel’s Brockes Passion, and performed it in Leipzig on Good Friday 1746; and as well as setting versions of some of Brockes’ verses in his St John Passion he absorbed Handel’s “Eilt, ihr angefochten Seelen” into it.’ John Butt in his article on Bach in the Cambridge Handel Encyclopaedia states that the bass line of Bach’s Goldberg Variations may have been partially derived from a Handel Chaconne.
I have recently written to John Butt about this. He notes that, conversely, there is very little to no evidence that Handel had any interest in Bach’s music (or indeed, in Vivaldi’s). This was reflected in the fact that Bach tried to meet Handel on at least two occasions, whereas we have no corresponding evidence of any efforts on Handel’s part to meet Bach.
So Bach, who in general ‘borrowed’ little from other composers, ‘borrowed’ some material from Handel (and, of course, produced a number of transcriptions of Vivaldi concertos). Whereas Handel – composing at precisely the same time – ‘borrowed’ a great deal from other composers, but did not do so from Bach (or Vivaldi), and indeed showed little interest in their compositions. An intriguing paradox.
Any comments? |
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Matthias Rademacher wrote (March 6, 2020):
[To Tony Watts] no doubts from music listener perspective. Bach's Johannespassion certainly uses parts of Brockespassion and very much sounds like Handel's setting of the libretto.
And I am not aware of any Bach borrowing by Handel.
For Vivaldi the statement is not correct. I remember a Vivaldi aria in one of the Handel pasticcios performed in Halle. Just checked: It is Catone: Amazon.co.uk |
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David Vickers wrote (March 6, 2020):
[To Tony Watts] Bach and Handel both self-borrow copiously. So did Vivaldi too. Bach doesn’t really borrow ideas from other composers though – the oft-cited Psalm 51 is an adaptation of Pergolesi’s Stabat mater, not a “borrowing”. Yes, he copied and performed the Brockes Passion – along with lots of other works by many composers from Palestrina to Lotti – but I don’t think the use of the “Wohin?” choral interjection technique and a few textual libretto connections to Brockes’ poetry really count as full-blown musical connections between the John Passion and Handel. They don’t sound alike at all to my ears, and there’s no actual musical borrowing in the Bach.
Bach certainly knew and performed a few other bits of Handel too; Armida abbandonata and a few opera arias were in the repertoire of the Leipzig collegium musicum.
I reckon Handel simply didn’t know much about Bach – amazing though that may seem to us three centuries on. The thing that makes this really strange, though, is that they were both friends of Telemann.
As for Vivaldi, there is a clear borrowing from L’estro armonico in one of Septimius’ arias in Theodora (there’s an article on it by Colin Timms). Otherwise, yes, it’s interesting that Handel’s widespread interest in Italian composers didn’t seem to extend much to Vivaldi. He seems to have preferred other Venetians such as Lotti and Caldara.
The more interesting dimension regarding Vivaldi is that he obviously knew and used some of Handel’s music; for example, there’s an aria from Handel’s Ezio in Vivaldi’s La Rosmira Fedele (like his Bajazet, largely a pasticcio). |
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J. Vaughan wrote (March 6, 2020):
There is an aria in Agrippina which has resemblance for me to the first bass aria in the Matthew Passion. Can we reckon this as another Bach borrowing from Handel, or is it purely-coincidental?
For what it is worth, the late Sir Stephen Cleobury's second recording of this latter is due out soon on the Choir's own label. |
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J. Vaughan wrote (March 6, 2020):
Yet further, I confess to not knowing the rather-famous L'Estro Armonico, so for which of Septimius' airs did Handel make his borrowing? My guess would be the one in Act II where he tells Didymus that Venus and Flora do not delight in the woe that disfigures their fairest resemblance below, with a ritornello or more sounding rather-Vivaldian, at least to me. |
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Matthias Rademacher wrote (March 6, 2020):
[To J. Vaughan] What is the first bass aria of Bach's Matthaeuspassion? "Gerne will ich mich bequemen"? I am not aware of anything similar from Agrippina (perhaps "Cade il mondo soggiogato"?). But no, I think this is surely not a copy. My understanding is that Handel wanted to show something very traditional and conventional in this aria, so it just a topos (and the dullest aria from the opera, at least for me).
Bach could have heard Agrippina in Hamburg between 1718 and 1722, but not sure if the aria was present in this production. Handel took much from Reinhard Keiser's Octavia, and additionally he reused most arias later. So, there could be a less obvious link also. |
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J. Vaughan wrote (March 6, 2020):
[To Matthias Rademacher] Yes, that is indeed the first bass aria. Thank you VERY much for your interesting points! |
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Jeffrey Solow wrote (March 6, 2020):
Bach also borrowed from Prince Johann Ernst, Albinoni, and Marcello. |
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Kim Patrick Clow wrote (March 6, 2020):
[To Jeffrey Solow] And Vivaldi, and Telemann, and and Gottfried Heinrich Stölzel, and others it's not possible to identify (e.g. BWV 1045 has been identified originating from a violin concerto from another composer that Bach reworked as the opening movement to a now lost Bach cantata cf Sinfonia in D major BWV 1045 - Provenance & More @ http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Ref/BWV1045-Ref.htm
"The Sinfonia is likely an arrangement based upon a movement from a violin concerto. Whether the latter source was an original composition by Bach has been called into question for stylistic reasons (see the article Die Wandlung der Konzertform bei Bach from the journal, Musikforschung 6, 1953, p. 143, by Rudolf Stephan. The limitations imposed by the NBA do not allow this matter to be treated in greater detail, but the possibility that such a violin concerto was originally composed by a different composer cannot be excluded from consideration, so that what we have here before us could just as well be Bach’s arrangement of a concerto by another composer (cf. also Ralph Leavis’s article, Zur Frage der Authentizität von Bachs Violinkonzert d-Moll, in the Bach Jahrbuch 1979, pp. 25-27) ." |
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J. Vaughan wrote (March 7, 2020):
[To Matthias Rademacher] Correction: I must not have matched my Vivaldi set names and opus numbers correctly, and thus I DO know at least one concerto in L'Estro Armonico, the one for two violins in A-Minor which Bach transcribed for organ. My favourite recording of it remains the oldish Marriner, though I havenot heard many, if any, of the more-recent period-instrument accounts. This set is the Building-a-Library feature on today's BBC Radio 3 Record Review at 9:30 a.m. UK time. |
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Kim Patrick Clow wrote (March 9, 2020):
It is interesting that Handel (like Bach) had such a close friendship with G. P. Telemann (Handel and Telemann were regular correspondents). Also, Handel even shipped some plants for Telemann's garden when Handel was happy to find out the news regarding Telemann's death was false).
Handel also borrowed or quoted from Telemann a lot in his own music. And Handel is listed as subscriber to Telemann's self published "Musique de table" in 1733. |
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Listen to Brockespassion with Mortensen [Handel-e] |
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Matthias Rademacher wrote (March 21, 2020):
Danmarks Radio repeats Brockespassion with Mortensen tonight (live performance). Find information here: https://www.dr.dk/radio/p2/p2-operaaften |
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Aryeh Oron wrote (March 22, 2020):
[To Matthias Rademacher] The discography of Handel's Brockes-Passion on the BCW has been revised
and updated a few months ago: https://www.bach-cantatas.com/Other/Handel-Brockes-Passion.htm |
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[Handel-e] Davis, chief theatre critic |
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Lmm Robarts wrote (March 22, 2020):
It's always heart-warming to hear of someone captivated by the music we love. But by a shrewd and crusty (occasionally when the production warrants it) theatre critic? The Times (of London, for our US friends) can boast of music critics who know their Handel, but I was surprised and delighted to read what Clive Davis, the paper's chief theatre critic, wrote yesterday. He is musing about how he'll occupy his time during the social distancing and house arrest most of us are urged to observe voluntarily.
"At least I have my Handel obsession to keep me occupied. What better way to get through a few hours than by listening to one of his operas, then, when it's finished, moving straight on to another? (He wrote dozens, not to mention oratorios and cantatas). My friends think I'm a bit cracked.
"I listen to jazz, world music and the other genres that have always been part of my life. But Handel has suddenly become the musician I can't live without. I still feel slightly embarrassed saying that, because, even though I've always loved classical music, I'd assumed until recently that the adopted Englishman was a second-rater compared with the almighty JS Bach. I even saw one critic call the composer of the wondrous Alcina the Andrew Lloyd Webber of his day. So I hadn't actually listened to much of his music, apart from the well-known lollipops. My addiction started with the cantatas, then I became hooked on the operas, and now I can't stop. (It helps that I'm learning Italian on an app and convince myself that I'm working.)
"What is it about Handel's music? Well, there's the astonishing melodic invention, the glorious use of colour, the way the voice becomes a virtuoso instrument.
"And where a lot of grand opera can still, well, sound grandiose to my ears, Ariodante or Giulio Cesare or Agrippina always seem to be played out on an intimate human scale, even if the story lines are often ridiculous.
"Perhaps my classical colleagues would disagree, but I'd say the music actually lends itself to being heard and not seen, so it's ideal for a time like this."
The comment about Bach accords with what I have encountered over the decades. Some Bach-followers just don't 'get' Handel, as can be inferred on Aryeh's rich Bach Cantatas site; even Joseph P Swain, Listening to Bach and Handel: A Comparative Critique (Pendragon: 2018) doesn't 'get' Handel. The music of our German-born, Italian schooled, British citizen is difficult to pin down using orthodox musical exegetical means. Compare/contrast (why would one wish to?) 'Erbarme dich' and 'I know that my Redeemer liveth' to see my point. Handel's inexhaustible invention and astonishing variety of genres never fails to thrill.
Thanks to Matthias for the invaluable links. Though we cannot get to Goettingen this year, at least the festival is coming to us. |
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J. Vaughan wrote (March 23, 2020):
[To Les Robarts] I personally-wish we could know how particular this critic is when it comes to musicological matters, particularly non-singing ones apart from word underlay, though what he DOES tell us is impressive in its own way. I think there is room for BOTH of these German-born masters! |
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Continue on Part 4 |
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