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George Frideric Handel & Bach
Discussions - Part 8 |
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Continue from Part 7 |
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Bach-Handel: Credibility re Bach might have wanted to "be" Handel |
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David Couch wrote (December 24, 2021):
I would love if somebody could help by providing a source for Bach's oft-quoted supposed remark about wanting not only to meet Handel but even "to be" him (see below). I have searched multiple books about Bach (and a couple about Handel), including what I could find in CPE's probable writings, and can find no actual source. This supposed "quotation" is frequently repeated; most Internet citations say Bach "apparently" said this. Indeed.
It would greatly surprise me for Bach to have said (and – to whom?) that he wanted to "be" Handel (if not himself); it seems very out of character, sounds like Romantic-era mythmaking, in English too.
Anybody know a source out there?
This is the exchange from back in 2004, in which the confident reply unfortunately did not include any source.
From https://www.bach-cantatas.com/Other/Handel-Gen1.htm - - -
Anna Vriend (July 12, 2004) wrote:
On the site http://www.gfhandel.org/, a site dedicated to Händel, I found the following, undocumented quote (under anecdotes):
Johann Sebastian Bach is attributed with the following remark:
"[Händel] is the only person I would wish to see before I die, and the only person I would wish to be, were I not Bach." [...]
Does anyone know whether this could be traced back somewhere? I'd be curious to know.
David Glenn Lebut Jr. (July 13, 2004) replied:
[To Anna Vriend] [...] it is most certainly true. In fact, he made two efforts (the first whilst in Weimar or Köthen, the second through Wilhelm Friedemann in the 1730s [whilst Friedemann was employed in Halle]). |
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Manguarian wrote (December 24, 2021):
"[Händel] is the only person I would wish to see before I die, and the only person I would wish to be, were I not Bach." [...]
If Bach did indeed say that, he means if I couldn't be as good as I am, I would settle for Handel. |
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William Hoffman wrote (December 26, 2021):
Each generation brings a different perspective to the past, often revealing more about contemporary outlook than about actual past history. The Bach-Handel Connection can be viewed as a succinct definition of history as a trick involving the living and the dead: either history as a trick the dead play on the living, called mort-main (dead hand) or a trick we play on the dead. What dominates the Bach-Handel Connection is 19th century Romanticism, which brought both out of obscurity to the Pantheon or Parnassus of greatness, notably the English with their Barnum and Bailey productions of Handel's Messiah at the Crystal Palace and the Germans with their deification of Bach as a treasure in the shaping of a nation united under one national denomination in the centenary of the St. Matthew Passion. The actual connection began with the centenary of Handel's (and Bach's) birth in 1784 in England with the Handel Jubilee when critic and musical historian Charles Burney compared the two, elevating Handel while denigrating Bach, claiming that the former was the superior musician and composer in all facets. That brought a strong response in 1788 from Sebastian's second oldest son, Emmanuel, and the quote: "All the more did it pain J. S. Bach not to have known Handel, that really great man whom he particularly respected." In 1786 Emmanuel had celebrated both with his now-famous Hamburg Charity Concert (https://accentus.com/discs/320/; source, "Bach and Handel: Synchronicity, Serendipity," https://www.bach-cantatas.com/Other/Handel-Gen4.htm. Only now is recognized their probably encounters in late 1704-early 1705 in Lübeck for Buxtehude's Abendmusiken and at the Hamburg Opera for Handel's Almira. |
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Kim Patrick Clow wrote (December 27, 2021):
[To Mangurian] There were certainly some opportunities for Handel to have met Bach, but he never did.
In 1719, Bach made the 35-kilometre (22 mi) journey from Köthen to Halle with the intention of meeting Handel; however, Handel had left the day before.
and
In 1730, Bach's oldest son, Wilhelm Friedemann, traveled to Halle to invite Handel to visit the Bach family in Leipzig, but the visit did not take place. |
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Thierry van Bastelaar wrote (December 27, 2021):
[To Mangurian] For one, I would be very surprised if Bach had said these words, if only because he was always humble--if sometimes disingenuously or obsequiously so--when talking about himself.
Still, that quote reminds one of "Since we cannot get the best, then we will have to settle for average" -- Leipzig Councilman Abraham Christoph Plaz after Graupner, Fasch and Telemann all turned down the Thomaskantor gig in 1723.
That said, I am very intrigued by William Hoffman's mention of a possible meeting of the two young composers in Lubeck (where the prospect of marrying Buxtehude's daughter as condition to succeed the master would ultimately prove too strong a disincentive). What evidence do we have for such a meeting? If their presence in town at the same time can be documented, I assume it would probably be a slam dunk.
Isn't there also a speculation, but little evidence, that Handel met Vivaldi in Venice in 1707? We know about his tournament with D. Scarlatti in Rome, and about Vivaldi's momentous influence on Bach, but I don't remember reading much at all about the personal or artistic influence that Handel and Vivaldi may have had on each other. Does anyone? |
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Kim Patrick Clow wrote (December 27, 2021):
[Thierry van Bastelaer] Yes, it was more than likely Vivaldi and Handel did meet in Venice in 1709, where Handel's opera was staged to great success. Michael Talbot, a Vivaldi scholar and author of
The Vivaldi Compendium, has this section about Handel
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Thierry van Bastelaar wrote (December 28, 2021):
[To Kim Patrick Clow] Thanks very much, Kim for sharing this source. Interesting to read that Handel did not borrow nearly as much thematic material from Vivaldi as he did from other, often less-known, composers, such as Stradella, Erba, Strungk and Kerll in Israel in Egypt for example.
But this is getting us off-topic, especially given Bach's remarkable restraint in borrowing from other composers--particularly in contrast with Handel. |
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Kim Patrick Clow wrote (December 28, 2021):
[Thierry van Bastelaer] Well, I answered your specific question ;) |
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David Couch wrote (December 30, 2021):
Thanks to William Hoffman, Thierry van Bastelaer, Kim Patrick Chow, “mangurian” and any others I missed. This topic has gone on to several interesting side issues (we know that Bach tried to meet Handel a couple of times, but did Handel meet Vivaldi, etc.)
I had asked if somebody knew a source for Bach's oft-quoted supposed remark that Handel […] "is the only person I would wish to see before I die, and the only person I would wish to be, were I not Bach." [...]
I think perhaps I will conclude (subject to further information) that the quote I asked about has NO credible source whatsoever. |
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[Handel-e] Alcina at Glyndebourne |
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Derek Spears wrote (July 9, 2022):
Friends kindly took me to see the new production of Alcina at Glyndebourne. I had read the various reviews of the production; while agreeing with the theatricality of the production, and it was at one level an entertaining evening in the theatre, I felt that it missed the heart of Handel's score, the ambiguity in its exploration of love, and its impact on the participants. The what one might term the superimposed narrative was not always as clear. as one might have hoped and I rather abandoned the attempt to follow it in Act 3. Tsinging was on the whole very good and the orchestra played with gusto - the horns were rather better behaved than seemingly they were on the opening night. I felt rather sorry for Jane Archibald as Alcina whose costumes seemed based on various bathing suits. I had been looking forward to the evening with keen anticipation as my previous experience of Handel at Glyndebourne had been so positive with productions of Giulio Cesare and Saul, in which the integrity of text seemed to have been an important feature.
I wish I could have said the same of this production. (None of the reviews made any mention of the nature of the text).Two of the three choruses were omitted and the third "Dall' orror del notte cieca" was sung by the soloists which meant the tenor and the bass assuming the various characters freed from Alcina's curse. The Act 2 ballet was omitted; originally written for Ariodante, it probably fits less well into Alcina's story, though Dean notes that its presence in several scores may well indicate it was performed. Two arias were omitted - La bocca vaga and All'alma fedel and their loss was felt, especially for Bradamante. Others were reduced to the 'A' section; these included Mio bel tesoro, E un folle, the trio Non e amor and possibly Si son quella (the ending seemed very abrupt). The curtailing of the trio was to be particularly regretted as Handel's ensembles are nearly always musical and dramatic highlights. A recorder played in the Musette, and .Mi lusinga il dolce affeto. (Chrysander's score does not indicate its presence but I have no immediate access to the HHA score to confirm or deny). The dinner break was made after Ah! mio cor and the Act III Sinfonia was played at the start of the resumed action. (The great moment in Ah mio cor when after the E flat B section Alcina resumes the lament with the words Ah mio cor was spoilt by the noisy turn of a revolving stage.) The Entree in Act 3 was accompanied by a side drum which did't seem to fit the music, and then followed by an unsolicited (?) return of the Menuet from the Act I Ballet. The side drum also participated in the tambourino, more appropriately, and that and the final coro were repeated as a single number. Johnathan Cohen conducted and played the continuo harpsichord which meant the burden of the continuo fell on the theorbo, except in the continuo arias. (Handel may well have done the same, but he probably could count on a second harpsichord.) If saving time was the reason for the cuts - though we left the theatre about ten minutes after 9.00pm -I would have cut the Oberto side plot which in this production seemed peculiarly detached; possibly because Astolfo was a visible human presence (and his spouse) rather than a transformed lion. I had thought that one of the aims of a festival like Glyndebourne was to produce operas like Alcina which if produced in the commercial theatre might require cuts - the ENO Alcina cut the trio. Perhaps because Alcina is one of my favourites, I had hoped for the same standards as informed Giulio Cesare and Saul. It also raised the question as to how much weight we should give to Handel's intentions - in this case the 1735 score of Alcina. Is Handel worthy of the same respect we would give to Bach or Mozart? I don't know who was responsible for the cuts, but I could not help feeling that less than full worth was given to one of the great operas of the 18th century. |
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J. Vaughan wrote (July 9, 2022):
[To Derek Spears] What about the ornamentation? |
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Derek Spears wrote (July 9, 2022):
[To J. Vaughan] Slightly over the top - some cadenzas a little long and the usual overuse of top notes. In the repeat of the A section of Dite me rido, it ground to a stop on phrases only accompanied by the continuo for embellishment which seemed a little excessive. |
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J. Vaughan wrote (July 9, 2022):
[To Derek Spears] Too bad.
In Miss? Briget Cunningham's programme, Handel's_ _Queens, ornamentation was virtuosic when it seemed to need to be, but, in the main, the melody was not abbandoned, even when there were some stratispherics from La Crowe. Most, though not all, cadenzas are limited to one breath, and unwritten tempo broadening is also limited. Harmonizing continuo is limited to one harpsichord.
Thank you for again reminding me of the situation re the Act-II ballets in these two major mid-1730's operas about which I keep forgetting. It is also too bad that they did not have a chorus, and about the cuts. |
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BCW: G.F. Handel's opera Alcina - Revised & updated Discography |
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Aryeh Oron wrote (July 13, 2022):
It is known that J.S. Bach did not composed an opera. However, as a "learned musician" he was familiar with operas of his time. In second half the 1730's he even performed with his Collegium Musicum in Leipzig several operatic arias, including two arias from the opera Alcina of his great contemporary G.F. Handel.
The discography page of Alcina on the BCW have been revised and updated. See:
Complete Recordings (56): https://www.bach-cantatas.com/Other/Handel-Alcina.htm
I believe this is the most comprehensive discography of Alcina. If you are aware of a recording of the opera missing from this page, or want to correct/add details of a recording already presented on the BCW, please do not hesitate to inform me. |
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J. Vaughan wrote (July 14, 2022):
[To Aryeh Oron] THAT many? |
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Derek Spears wrote (July 14, 2022):
[To Aryeh Oron] Definitely the definitive list.
One minor point - in the list of orchestration of Alcina, two treble recorders and one soprano recorder are missing. |
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Bach and Handel - Discussions Part 8 |
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John Beattie wrote (March 22, 2023):
Today, March 21, 2023, is the 338th birthday of the greatest musician who has ever lived.
3 3 8
B+A C H
* * * *
First, offering a reflection of my own on Johann Sebastian Bach and George Frideric Handel.
We may consider Bach and Handel as being two castles in the lovely German musical countryside.
The Handel castle is enormous, ornate, glittery-gorgeous, extraordinary and we'll never get tired of admiring it in all its exterior finery and visual splendors. Curious, however...if we open the front door and look inside, there's not very much in there. It's kind of drafty...HELLO...(hello...hello...hello...). But that's okay, we step back outside and resume marveling gratefully at its wondrous external glories, which will always delight us for as long as we live.
The Bach castle, nearby, is not nearly as large and elaborate, though still sizable and handsome and decorative from the outside, perfectly nice to see and enjoy and appreciate. But...in contrast to the Handel castle...when we walk through the front door of the Bach castle...the WHOLE COSMOS OPENS UP.
* * * *
Evaluations of Handel: some authorities belittle his body of compositions as shallow or etc..
For instance we read online that according to Tchaikovsky, "Handel is only fourth rate. He is not even interesting."
We also read that Gustav Leonhardt once proclaimed, "je déteste sa musique".
But on the other hand, by contrast, Handel's bottomline reputation would appear to be firm and secure for all time, because there's someone we know who did intensely prize the music of Handel...
...one certain fellow by the name of Johann Sebastian Bach.
* * * *
Since the age of 12 in 1960, upon first hearing Messiah and the Brandenburgs with amazement and joy at both, I have always wondered, and have always felt chagrin about, how it could be that Bach and Handel, these two Giants of the Baroque as we think of them today, and exact contemporaries who lived to the ages of 65 and 74, respectively, never met and evidently never even corresponded.
This is especially poignant since we know the Leipzig cantor so fiercely admired, and was so strongly desirous of meeting, the London impresario.
My belief is that many lovers of Bach and Handel worldwide who are aware of the two composers' azero interaction share the regret that I personally feel about it. Furthermore I believe that in years and decades going forward, this topic may come very much more to the forefront than it has been until now, among scholars and researchers along with the general baroque-music-loving public. I would wish to encourage and solicit as broad, as universal a discussion about this as people may be interested in, now and in the future. To me it is a salient fact that I keep coming back to – how did it come to pass that Bach and Handel never met up together, not even once, and never even communicated with each other, during their long, full, bounteously creative lives that chronologically coincided almost exactly?
If it should be possible, now in the 21st century, for everyone to discern, and for most to concur on, some real, bona fide reason for it – i.e. that the lack of Bach and Handel ever meeting was not an accident or an oversight or a miscue or some sort of negligence or mistake but had an actual specific cause – I think that will help many people, including myself, reconcile ourselves to it.
I, for one, do believe there WAS such a definite reason, expressed as follows in seven words:
Handel wished to not ever meet Bach.
* * * *
On page 209 of Bach – The Learned Musician, eminent scholar Professor Christoph Wolff writes:
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While there is no evidence whatsoever that Handel deliberately avoided Bach, the assumption that one was "not as curious" as the other is probably correct.
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To myself, without having devoted a lifetime of study to J.S.B. as Professor Wolff and other scholars have done, it appears that although there is no actual specific evidence that Handel avoided Bach, there is overwhelming circumstantial evidence suggesting that in fact, he did. Otherwise, a lot of things don't make sense.
My own speculation is that Handel well knew Bach's renown for astonishing, transcendent, beyond-legendary virtuosity, such as reported from every time Bach auditioned at a new township, and also as exemplified by the 1717 Marchand episode (wherein just before a scheduled competition vs. Bach, Louis Marchand, himself an unquestioned virtuoso, evidently clandestinely heard Bach play...as a result of which he promptly left town). I believe Handel surmised that if he ever met Bach, demands would be irresistible for them to compare keyboard skills in front of a live audience – which the great Handel had heard plenty enough about Bach to know he...wanted no part of! Why should Handel risk allowing his own extraordinary abilities to possibly appear diminutive alongside those of Bach? Why should he hazard getting "shown up" in front of a discerning crowd, to be reported far and wide? I believe that by 1717 and thereafter, Handel had already decided that, hmmm, maybe it will be best never to cross paths with this Bach fellow.
Yes, it means Handel was vain...but this musical genius – a distant second to Bach but still a wonderful composer – this darling of royalty and of the British people – had every right to be vain!
Further speculation by me, which might appear far-fetched but bear with me, is that Handel, maybe more than anyone else (like Salieri vis-à-vis Mozart as portrayed in Peter Shaffer's play Amadeus), could see the remarkable majesty and depth of Bach's works which Handel well knew his own works did not possess other than superficially on their admittedly brilliantly charismatic, crowd-pleasing surface. Perhaps Handel, correctly, sensed that future connoisseurs of finest music for all posterity would have a vastly higher opinion of Bach's output than his own? Which engendered professional angst and jealousy towards Bach, reinforcing that Handel did not ever want to meet him?
* * * *
May I raise herebelow some points, and ask some questions, which no scholars or researchers have addressed insofar as I have been able to find online. Anyone should advise if certain items I refer to betray a lack of knowledge on my part, or even incorrect facts, since I'm a non-scholar myself.
I have previously raised these points in a communication to Professor Wolff, which I hope he will find of interest and will respond to.
1.
Is it accurate that Bach and Handel, besides never meeting, never even corresponded, at least insofar as we know? My understanding is that relatively little correspondence by Handel has survived, and even less by Bach. But nevertheless if they had corresponded, wouldn't there be third-party sources, etc., indicating and describing such?
2.
There's a famous quotation by J.S.B. found in German and English at several places around the internet:
"[Handel] is the only person I would wish to see before I die, and the only person I would wish to be, were I not Bach."
But no one seems to be able to document this. Therefore I have to agree with David Couch in the thread above who concludes (December 30, 2021) that there isn't any valid source for this and that therefore, it appears to be unfounded.
3.
Upon the 1729 occasion when Wilhelm Friedemann Bach traveled to Halle to invite Handel to Leipzig and Handel, according to the report which Professor Wolff relates on pages 208-209 of Learned Musician, gave the "answer that he could not come to Leipzig, and regretted it very much", do we know whether this answer was in written form for W.F.B. to give to his father? If so, does the document survive? Or do we know whether Handel's declining of the invitation was purely verbal?
Whether or not there is a document which survives, do we know the wording of the regrets? Do we know what the "tone" was?
Do we know, or suspect, that Handel's response in some fashion was polite but less than warm? Was he telling J.S.B. in effect: never mind this idea about us meeting? Let's skip it?
Because if Handel's response had been friendly, along the lines of, "I can't make it to visit you this time, but why don't we plan to convene on some future occasion", then wouldn't Bach and Handel have at least corresponded subsequently? Wouldn't they have planned to make this happen – even if not until years later, or even decades later? Handel never visited Germany again, am I correct, until August 1750 just after Bach's death – but they still could have planned to meet then, if they had been in amiable contact with one another – as one might have expected them to be since they were both friends of Telemann (see below).
The fact that they did not correspond (is this correct) in the short term or long term after 1729, and that Bach never made another attempt to meet Handel during Bach's remaining 20+ years of life, to me suggest that Handel in 1729 somehow communicated to Bach that he was not keen on meeting, on that occasion or on any other occasion in the future.
4.
Handel and Georg Philipp Telemann were good friends during their youth and maintained a correspondence into their latter years. Meanwhile Bach and Telemann also became good friends, so much so in fact that Telemann became godfather to Carl Philipp Emanuel Bach.
Would it therefore seem too much to ask whether Telemann might have encouraged friendship between his two good friends? Is there any extant correspondence wherein Telemann mentions Bach to Handel? Yet Handel and Bach still never met, or even corresponded. Would it therefore seem too much to ask whether their lack of even corresponding might have been, must have been, intentional – by Handel? I.e. may we speculate that surely at some point, in correspondence which maybe does not survive, Telemann must have mentioned Bach in the most highly favorable terms to Handel? Yet mysteriously, Handel never befriended Bach at any time.
This provides especially strong context, I would urge, to Handel's declining of Bach's 1729 invitation. Since they were both such warm, longstanding friends of Telemann's, one emphatically would have expected them at least to correspond after this missed opportunity to get together...unless one of the two, Handel, truly did not want to get together.
5.
Furthermore, backtracking: when Handel had been planning his 1729 trip to Halle which is so close to Leipzig, wouldn't Handel and Bach, as longstanding mutual friends of Telemann, have been expected to already know each other via correspondence and have already planned to meet, anyway? That would have been a perfect, easy occasion on which to do so. It would not have been necessary for Bach to find out, belatedly, that Handel was at Halle, and then to send W.F.B. to invite Handel, belatedly, to Leipzig.
Backtracking further: in 1719 when Bach had traveled on very short notice aiming to meet Handel and missed him only by a day, wouldn't Handel's friends/acquaintances he had been visiting have let him know subsequently about Bach's having been looking to meet him? I.e. wouldn't Handel have been completely well aware, from 1719, of Bach's interest? But apparently Handel never acted upon this knowledge in any way?
Therefore to me from these circumstances, the appearance becomes even stronger, ever stronger, that this was no accident. It appears inescapably that Handel intentionally maintained the lifelong separation from Bach.
6.
Perhaps it was a matter of pride for Bach, who maybe felt he would appear as a supplicant if he initiated a correspondence with Handel? So he preferred Handel to be the one to send the first letter? Which never happened.
Or alternatively may we speculate: perhaps Bach did write to Handel at some point, conceivably even more than once, and Handel never responded?
7.
Bach during his own lifetime, according to my understanding, was not as famous as Handel and Telemann, but neither was he "obscure" by any means – especially not amongst the international community of professional musicians. His activities would have been easy, if not inevitable, for Handel to know about. For instance:
• Bach was in the forefront of the discussion about tuning of keyboard instruments, as an advocate of equal temperament and Werckmeister temperaments.
• Would we not expect Handel to have read J.A. Scheibe's 1737 published criticism of Bach, walked back in 1739 via Scheibe's effusive praise of the Italian Concerto? Mightn't Handel have therefore been curious to acquire the Italian Concerto for his own inspection?
• During these years, Bach was arranging for performances of some Handel works at Leipzig; wouldn't reports thereof have reached Handel; or perhaps, wouldn't Bach himself have taken one or more of such happy occasions to write to Handel with praise for the works, plus possibly observations and questions about them?
• As of 1747, both men were members of the Society of Musical Sciences, through which Handel will have received works by Bach including the triple canon for six voices, BWV 1076.
Somehow throughout and despite all these events, Bach and Handel, besides not ever meeting, never even exchanged communications that we know of. It seems unfathomable. It seems like a path that one of the two parties – Handel – must have consciously chosen.
No?
8.
Discussions in the thread above indicate that apparently there are no records of mentions, or performances, by Handel of any works by Bach, whether in published reports, in correspondence with anyone, or wherever.
Were any works by Bach, from among those few which Bach published during his lifetime, listed in Handel's estate after his passing if we have records from the estate?
9.
The clincher in my view:
In 1754, F.W. Marpurg wrote in Abhandlung von der Fuge: "Did not as great a one as Handel avoid every opportunity of confronting the late Bach...or of getting involved with him?"
As far as I can spot, no one has pointed out in connection with this, that when Marpurg wrote and published these words: HANDEL WAS STILL LIVING.
Would this not have appeared distinctly as the throwing-down of a gauntlet, for Handel's friends to report to him in case he didn't see it himself? And for Handel then to refute, as a cogent matter of pride?
If there is no record that he did refute it, or even that any of his friends ever refuted it on his behalf during or after his lifetime, this is quite telling, I believe.
* * * *
P.S.
Do I read correctly that Messiah was not one of the Handel works that was listed in Bach's estate after his passing?
Do I read correctly that Messiah, after its Dublin premiere in 1742, was performed only intermittently in England throughout the remainder of the 1740's, and then became more and more popular but was never published until 1767?
I.e. does it appear that Bach never knew Messiah?
:-|
Unless, hopefully, he may have learned about it via the Society of Musical Sciences, and may have placed an order for it via his local bookseller?
[Correction: the local bookseller would not have been able to fill such an order by Bach, as Messiah was not yet published.] |
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Jeffrey Solow wrote (March 22, 2023):
Your interesting discussion of the possibility of Handel avoiding Bach has indeed been successfully distributed to the group! |
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Miguel Prohaska wrote (March 23, 2023):
In the book Music in the Castle of Heaven, John Eliot Gardiner wrote about Bach, Handel and Telemann in the fourth chapter The Class of '85.
Farther in the book he also wriote that Bach and Handel had different preoccupations: for Bach: "life, death, God and eternity" for Handel : "love, fury, loyalty and power." Page 139 of Penguin edition, 2014 |
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Boss wrote (March 23, 2023):
[To John Beattie] Friend of the Bach Archiv and of thé NBG, My 36 Bach biographies in 3 languages confirm most of the facts you mention. Your speculations are very interesting. But it is hard to come to conclusions. Almost 300 years later we would have been happy to see mutual respect. But as you speculate, there is no proof. This is like the story of Schubert meeting Beethoven, one knew the other but is it certain that Beethoven knew Schubert? |
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Miguel Prohaska wrote (March 27, 2023):
In The Learned Musician, Christoph Wolff wrote:
"Neither Handel...nor Telemann ever engaged so fully in the kind of teaching that Bach enjoyed throughout his life. More important, none of them could, as Bach did, put their teaching on an academic stage - the secret that allowed his smallish world to burst into a limitless orb."
Norton, 2013, page 331 |
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Kim Patrick Clow wrote (March 28, 2023):
[To Miguel Prohaska] Regarding that Christoph Wollf quote: the first part is very true - and a friend noted “Michael Maul has been researching the network of students and their lasting impact on music in that part of Germany. The second part strikes me as silly hyperbole - Bach never taught at an institution, Bach was never an academic, Bach never ran a school for composers…and ‘limitless orb’ sounds ridiculous :)” |
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Russell Davis wrote (March 28, 2023):
I don’t understand what this is supposed to mean; it makes no sense to me:
"Bach never taught at an institution, Bach was never an academic, Bach never ran a school for composers…and ‘limitless orb’ sounds ridiculous :)” |
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Miguel Prohaska wrote (March 28, 2023):
[To Kim Patrick Clow] The quote was taken from Christoph Wolff, The Learned Musician, Norton, 2013, in chapter 9 Musician and Scholar, pages 305 to 339.
I interpreted limitless orb as meaning the influenceBach has had outside Germany, and after his life.
The great amount of websites dedicated to Bach, including the very detailed and extensive bach-cantatas.com, illustrate that sentence. Equally Bach's music being performed in many countries shows the extent of his influence. |
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Zachary Uram wrote (March 28, 2023):
[To Miguel Prohaska] I agree with Professor Wolff. No composer has had quite the global impact that Bach has! |
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