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Recordings & Discussions of Cantatas: Cantatas BWV 1-50 | Cantatas BWV 51-100 | Cantatas BWV 101-150 | Cantatas BWV 151-200 | Cantatas BWV 201-224 | Cantatas BWV Anh | Order of Discussion

Cantata BWV 66
Erfreut euch, ihr Herzen
Cantata BWV 66a
Der Himmel dacht auf Anhalts Ruhm und Glück
Discussions - Part 2

Continue from Part 1

Discussions in the Week of March 19, 2006

Douglas Cowling wrote (March 18, 2006):
Week of March 19: Cantata 66

Week of March 19, 2006

Cantata 66: “Erfreut euch, ihr Herzen

First Performed: April 10, 1724 - Leipzig;
2nd performance: March 26, 1731 - Leipzig;
3rd performance: April 11, 1735 ? - Leipzig

First Annual Cantata Cycle, 1723-24 (Jahrgang I)
Previous Sunday in 1724: St. John Passion (BWV 245) (Version 1)
Previous Day: Easter Day - BWV 31, “Der Himmel lacht” & BWV 4. “Christ Lag in Todesbanden
Next Day: 3rd Day of Easter - BWV 134, “Ein Herz, das seinen Jesum lebend weiss

Libretto: Anon

Text: See http://www.cs.ualberta.ca/~wfb/cantatas/66.html

Translations: See: http://www.bach-cantatas.com/BWV66.htm

Parody History:
Based on the Secular Cantata ‘Der Himmel dacht auf Anhalts Ruhm und Glück’ BWV 66a, composed by Bach in 1718 to celebrate the birthday of Prince Leopold of Anhalt-Cöthen

Chorale:
Mvt 7: “Christ ist Erstandenhttp://www.bach-cantatas.com/Texts/Chorale090-Eng3.htm

Movements & Scoring:

Mvt. 1: Chorus
Erfreut euch, ihr Herzen
Choir: SATB
Instruments::Tr, 2 Ob, Fg, 2 Vn, Va, Bc

Mvt. 2: Recitative
Es bricht das Grab und damit unsre Not
Soloists: Bass
Instruments: 2 Vn, Va, Bc

Mvt. 3: Aria
Lasset dem Höchsten ein Danklied erschallen
Soloists:Bass
Instruments: 2 Ob, Fg, 2 Vn, Va, Bc

Mvt. 4 Recitative - Dialogue & Arioso - Duet
Bei Jesu Leben freudig sein
Soloists: Alto, Tenor
Instruments: Bc

Mvt. 5: Aria - Duet
Ich fürchte {zwar, nicht} des Grabes Finsternissen
Soloists:: Alto, Tenor
Instruments: Vns, Bc

Mvt. 6: Chorale
Alleluja! Alleluja! Alleluja!
Choir: SATB
Instruments: UKI, Bc

Liturgical Comments:

Written for Easter Monday. Cantatas were sung on the three days of Easter: Sunday, Monday and Tuesday (the Lutheran reduction of the week-long Ocatve of Easter)

The orders for Mass and Vespers can be found in an appendix at the end of this posting. Extracted from Wolff.

Texts of Readings:
Readings: Epistle: Acts 10: 34-43; Gospel: Luke 24: 13-35
See: http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Read/Easter-Monday.htm

Introduction to Lutheran Church Year: http://www.bach-cantatas.com/LCY/index.htm

Piano Vocal Score: (free PDF download). See: http://www.bach-cantatas.com/BWV66.htm

Recordings: http://www.bach-cantatas.com/BWV66.htm#RC

Music (free streaming download): http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Mus/BWV66-Mus.htm

Commentaries:
http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Guide/BWV66-Guide.htm
http://www.classical.net/music/comp.lst/works/bachjs/cantatas/066.html
http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=42:65222~T1

Previous Discussion: http://www.bach-cantatas.com/BWV66-D.htm

Performances of Bach Cantatas: http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Concerts/Concert-2006.htm

Appendix:

ORDER OF SUNDAY & HOLYDAY MASS (Amt) - 7:00 -10:00 am

1. Choir: Hymn in figural or polyphonic setting
2. Organ: Prelude introducing Introit
3. Choir: Introit Motet in figural or polyphomic setting

4. Organ: Prelude introducing Kyrie
5. Choir: Kyrie in figural setting
6. Choir: Gloria in figural setting (minister sings intonation from altar)

7. Minister & Altar Singers (lower form boys):
Salutation & Collect (Prayer of Day) sung from altar
8. Minister: Epistle sung from altar steps

9. Organ: Prelude introduing Hymn
10. Congregation: Hymn of Season (de tempore)
11. Minister & Altar Singers: Gospel with responses sung from altar steps

12. Organ: Prelude introducing cantata
13. Choir: First Cantata

14. Choir:: Credo sung in chorale setting, minister intones from altar steps
15. Organ: Prelude introducing Wir Glauben
16. Congregation: Wir Glauben All (German Credo)

17. Minister: Spoken annoucement of Sermon from altar
18. Organ: Prelude introducing hymn
19. Congregation: Hymn
20. Minister: Text of Sermon & Lord’s Prayer from pulpit
21. Minister: Sermon (8:00 a.m., 1 hour)
22. Minister: Prayers, Announcments & Benediction from pulpit

23. Organ: Prelude introducing hymn
24. Congregation Hymn
25. Mnister & Altar Singers: Preface in Latin from altar
26. Choir: Sanctus in figural setting (without Osanna or Benedictus)
27. Minister: spoken Communion admoniton, Words of Institution
28. Congregation: Distribution of Communion at altar steps

29. Organ: Prelude introducting Communion Cantata
30. Choir: Second Cantata

31. Organ: Prelude introducing hymn
32. Congregation: Hymn during Communion
33. Minister & Altar Singers: Collect with responses sung from altar
34. Minister: spoken Benediction

35. Organ: Prelude introducing Hymn
36. Congregation: Hymn
or
36. Choir: Hymn in figural setting (festal days)

ORDER OF AFTERNOON VESPERS ­ 1:30 pm

1. Organ: Prelude introducing Hymn
2. Choir: Hymn in figural setting

3. Choir: Cantata (repeated from morning)

4. Organ: Prelude introducing Hymn
5. Congregation: Hymn
6. Minister & Altar Singers: Psalm
7. Minister: Lord’s Prayer from altar steps

8. Organ: Prelude introducing hymn
9. Congregation: Hymn

10. Minister: Annoucement of Sermon from pulpit
11. Congregation: Hymn
12. Minister: Sermon from pulpit
[13. Choir: Passion or narrativer oratorio, no cantata]
14. Minister: spoken Prayers, Collect & Benediction from pulpit

15. Organ: Prelude introducing Magnificat
16. Choir: LatinMagnificat in figural setting
17. Congregation: German Magnificat Hymn (Meine Seele)

18. Minister: spoken Responsary, Collect & Benediction from altar
19. Congregation: Hymn ­ Nun Danket Alle Gott

Thomas Braatz wrote (March 18, 2006):
Douglas Cowling wrote:
>>Chorale: Mvt 7: "Christ ist Erstanden" http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Texts/Chorale090-Eng3.htm <<
Although the information about this chorale melody is only indirectly referred to in the link above, readers can obtain a wealth of information about the chorale melody at: http://www.bach-cantatas.com/CM/Christ-ist-erstanden.htm

Thomas Shepherd wrote (March 19, 2006):
Douglas Cowling wrote:
< ORDER OF SUNDAY & HOLYDAY MASS (Amt) - 7:00 -10:00 am
1. Choir: Hymn in figural or polyphonic setting
2. Organ: Prelude introducing Introit
3. Choir: Introit Motet in figural or polyphomic setting…


36. Choir: Hymn in figural setting (festal days)
ORDER OF AFTERNOON VESPERS 1:30 pm
1. Organ: Prelude introducing Hymn
2. Choir: Hymn in figural setting

18. Minister: spoken Responsary, Collect & Benediction from altar
19. Congregation: Hymn Nun Danket Alle Gott >

Am I failing my Anglican congregation Sunday by Sunday with a 1 hour 15mins. (max.) service as the Parish Eucharist and 50 mins for Evensong? Should I try the service model the good burghers of Leipzig enjoyed (endured?)- 3 hours in the morning and a couple in the afternoon for good measure.

We would never get away with it now - would we?

Douglas Cowling wrote (March 19, 2006):
Thomas Shepherd wrote:
< Evensong? Should I try the service model the good burghers of Leipzig enjoyed (endured?) - 3 hours in the morning and a couple more in the afternoon for good measure. >
On Sunday, Bach would have been in church almost continuously for 8 hours (don't forget that there was a noon service to play as well). The only domestic artifact that survives form the Bach household is a beer glass -- he deserved a pint on Sunday afternoon!

Chris Rowson wrote (March 19, 2006):
Thomas Shepherd wrote:
< ... Should I try the service model the good burghers of Leipzig enjoyed (endured?)- 3 hours in the morning and a couple more in the afternoon for good measure.
We would never get away with it now - would we? >
If you had a live band led by Sebastian Bach, I think you would.

Julian Mincham wrote (March 21, 2006):
BWV 66

Two general observations; one that Bach is here continuing the practice of not composing new works but resurrecting or rewriting earlier cantatas. This was a feature of this part of the first cycle possibly, as I mentioned in an earlier email, because of the workload imposed by the writing and performance preparations of SJP (BWV 245). This work ,which has the 'feel' of a secular work, originated from the Cöthen period.

Secondly the scale of the work is worth a mention. All movements are lengthy. The opening chorus, even when taken at a good lick is the best part of 10 minutes long. Its opening is typical of Bach's representation of joyous celebration and the various motives which he was wont to use for this expression are noticeable e.g. Schweitzer's motive of joy (two quick note sfollowed by a longer one) and the swirls of very fast notes, usually covering a full octave of the major scale, first heard in the bass then taken up by the upper strings. (See also the opening choruses of BWV 11 and the Christmas Oratorio (BWV 248) to see how he uses similar ideas for joyous effect but, nevertheless, still producing movements with their own uniqueness of character. It is interesting to compare directly these three movements).

The vocal writing is clear, often homophonic and unencumbered by complex contrapuntal devices; it is, consequently a very easy work to 'get inside', despite its length.

Of note is the marked contrast between the A sections and the middle B section ('away with tears, terror and abandonment'). The theme here is based upon a series of repeated notes (linking it musically to the later duet) and a falling chromatic scale (representing desolation and fear but lacking the dense counterpoint or stringent harmonies of the first chorus of BWV 14 which has been alluded to recently). The texture is generally light, much of it based upon the two line of bass and alto with simple and uncluttered imitative entries when the full choir is called upon. There is just one brief reminder of the 'joy' figure and the swirling scales are completely absent.

The bass aria has much less differentiation between the A and B sections and is notable for the hornpipe -like rhythm of the strings. This rhythmic complexity is heightened by the change from 3 to 2 time preceding the cadences (hemiola)---no change of time signature of course but the syncopation provides the temporary feeling of two in a bar for just two bars on each occasion; a delicious moment.

As with the repeated notes mentioned above, the reiterated falling chords which concluded the bass recitative are brought back to form part of the instrumental accompaniment for the middle section of this aria---another piece of evidence of Bach's thinking organically in terms of the overall structure of the cantata.

The recit-- duet---recit (the duet texture is a reoccuring part of the musical thinking of this work) is too long to examine in detail. The feeling is operatic and reminds us Bach's enthusiasm in expressing exchanges between opposites or contradictions (e.g. the later secular cantata, Phoebus and Pan BWV 201).

I have gone on too long so will not comment upon the duet; but this should not reflect upon its quality. It is, however, slightly surprising to find the final Easter Chorale to be minor in a work which has been predominantly and triumphantly major. In the second cycle one sometimes finds a movement in the minor which one would have supposed to be much more obviously suggestive of the major mode (and vice versa). My view is that sometimes Bach returns to the darker minor tones in order to remind us of the seriousness of his theme. In this cantata the accent is upon the joy that the resurrection provides for the true believer. But the resurrection is a very serious business nevertheless, and Bach leaves us with a reminder of this. The Hallelujahs in the chosen hymn are a decidedly muted affair----see also, incidentally, the closing Hallelujahs of a couple of the movements from BWV 4 (And in order that I am not accused of pedalling any religious view I should declare that I am an atheist with no religious allegience and absolutely no missionary zeal of any kind! I am interested in Bach's responses to his theological texts because it reveals more of the nature and expression of the music and of his approach to composition. But what I take from the music is entirely humanitarian; a unique expression of the complexities and contradictions of human emotions).

Peter Smaill wrote (March 21, 2006):
The inclusion of the Chorale in BWV 66, the final verse of the ancient "Christ ist erstanden," marks a moment of anachronism by Bach compared with the rhythmic and stylistic modernity of the transferred secular cantata which precedes. Whereas in most instances Bach set a text to music (Wolff, quoting Scheide quoting Rochlitz says he generally submitted three for choice to the superintendent Deyling, professor of theology), here the poet has skilfully recast the text around the music.

Wolff also points out that Cöthen origins, namely of BWV 66a/1, BWV 66a/3, BWV 173a/6-7, BWV 184a/4, BWV 184a/6 and BWV 173a/4, create the importation into the relative sacred cantatas of dance-rhythms- respectively a Gigue-Passepied, a Pastorale, a Bourree, a Polonaise, a Gavotte, and finally "al tempo di Menuetto."

Thomas Braatz has contributed a fascinating and extensive link on the subject of "Christ ist erstanden," which, along with "Christus der uns Selig Macht" from the SJP (BWV 245) of the prior week is I think one of the few Chorales from the Hymnbook of the Bohemian Brethren of 1538, in Bach's library, to have been reproduced in Bach's sacred music output. It is perhaps strange that it is used but once in the Cantatas, although featuring also in the Orgelbüchlein, given the extensive use made of it by generations of composers.

To my ear and unplayed (Riemenschneider only lists the not-to-be-confused "Christ ist erstanden,") it sound modal rather than minor, IMO a glorious tierce de Picardie at the end providing a fitting end to the Easter Monday celebrations. Others more clued up on modes maybe could put me right on this. Whatever, the archaism creates a striking contrast.

Ed Mynkowski wrote (March 21, 2006):
Peter Smaill wrote:
< It is perhaps strange that it is used but once in the Cantatas
it sound modal rather than minor
Others more clued up on modes maybe could put me right on this. >

I hope you will forgive me for quickly grabbing a few points which I want torespond to (positively!)

If we get into it deeply enough, I expect we will find many, many things that Bach used only once. I recall a comment in reference to Schoenberg, or atonal/polytonal/twelve-tone harmonies (APTT), or lack thereof - there are no new relations between notes. Bach tried them all first, many of them only once. I cannot recover the reference, I believe it was Craig Smith of Emmanuel Music in a talk, but I do not want to burden Craig with the responsibility if it was not him. If no one steps forward to claim it, I'll take the credit (or blame). You can quote me.

I hope the modal invitation results in discussion, I am without a clue as to the distinction between modal and APTT, especially as used by jazz musicians, for example, Miles Davis. BTW, I am not necessarily proposing APTT as an acronym for future use. I have already wasted more keystrokes than I saved. On the other hand, if we need one to be distinct from modal, then we need one.

Raymond Joly wrote (March 22, 2006):
Sorry the Web does not have golden letters for me to copy the following lines by Julian Mincham:
«And in order that I am not accused of peddling any religious view I should declare that I am an atheist with no religious allegiance and absolutely no missionary zeal of any kind! I am interested in Bach's responses to his theological texts because it reveals more of the nature and expression of the music and of his approach to composition. But what I take from the music is entirely humanitarian; a unique expression of the complexities and contradictions of human emotions»-including, I would add, man's longing for the absolute in heaven and hell.

No limit imposed on those who also-very legitimately-wish to derive improvement in a religious sense from listening to that music. Indeed, I am sure devout Christians are likely to hit on relevant points in the productions of a devout Christian that would have escaped non-believers. And as to straying into ground- and endless speculations, experience has taught us that it is a universal tendency no amount of wishing to be rational will eradicate-still less acting like the Pharisee and praising onsself for being so wonderfully rational.

Julian Mincham wrote:
< [...] My view is that sometimes Bach returns to the darker minor tones in order to remind us of the seriousness of his theme. In this cantata the accent is upon the joy that the resurrection provides for the true believer.. But the resurrection is a very serious business nevertheless, and Bach leaves us with a reminder of this. The Hallelujahs in the chosen hymn are a decidedly muted affair----see also, incidentally, the closing Hallelujahs of a couple of the movements from BWV 4. (And in order that I am not accused [etc.: see quotation above]. >

Yang JF wrote (March 22, 2006):
Julian Mincham wrote:
< Of note is the marked contrast between the A sections and the middle B section ('away with tears, terror and abandonment'). The theme here is based upon a series of repeated notes (linking it musically to the later duet) >
There are two duet parts in this work, I guess you mean the Aria duet, where Bach added heart-warming melodies on the dark repeated notes?

< As with the repeated notes mentioned above, the reiterated falling chords which concluded the bass recitative are brought back to form part of the instrumental accompaniment for the middle section of this aria---another piece of evidence of Bach's thinking organically in terms of the overall structure of the cantata. >
These falling chords also seem to appear in A section of the bass aria, just before the repeat of the opening ritornello, accompanying the word "Treu".

Julian Mincham wrote (March 22, 2006):
Raymond Joly writes:
< And as to straying into ground- and endless speculations, experience has taught us that it is a universal tendency no amount of wishing to be rational will eradicate-still less acting like the Pharisee and praising onsself for being so wonderfully rational. >
I wish I understood the meaning of this sentence but it is too obscure for me.

Perhaps you could express your meaning clearly. But please do not attribute to me views or positions which you assume I have expressed rather than those which I have actually expresed:-- if that is what you are doing. You may not be--I simply cannot tell from what you have written.

Neil Halliday wrote (March 22, 2006):
BWV 66

Thanks to Julian for an excellent description of the music of this cantata, which has covered much of what I observed, and more; however, I submit my thoughts as first formulated before I read his post:

The joyful, exuberant opening chorus is attractive on the first hearing, for despite its complexity, it is melodious and relatively transparent in all its parts.

The whirling cascades of demisemiquavers rising from the continuo to the upper strings reminds one of the animated music, also in 3/8 time, of the opening chorus of the XO; interestingly, both movements began life as movements of secular cantatas. If you thought the violins hit a very high note at the top of this run in the second ritornello, you are right - it's the 2nd A above the treble clef.

-------

Some personal observations/opinions about the performances:

I would say all of the recordings of this movement for which there are samples at the BCW are at least satisfactory. I notice that both Suzuki [9] and Gardiner's trumpeter [6] take a little while to warm up - both of them are noticeably inaccurate on the first triple-turn-like figure (rapid 1/32nd notes) above the stave. Rilling's modern trumpet [1] can be relied upon for unerring accuracy and brilliance, as expected. I especially like Rilling's instruments and Herreweghe's choir [4].

I'm not sure what Bach is getting at, with the `Andante' marking at the start of the central section (BGA score). Most of the conductors ignore it (I think), and in the case of a conductor who does observe it - Leusink - the music almost takes on a mournful air that jars somewhat against the joyful preceding and following sections, or maybe I just don't want to be reminded too much of sadness, in the middle of this movement.
------
The accompanied recitative starts with some delicious harmony, richly performed in Rilling [1] and Suzuki [9]. Thanks to Julian for noting that the repeated chords, ending this short movement, are imitated in the central section of the following aria; I had not noticed this unifying element in the instrumentation.
----------
The non-operatic, concert version of the long recitative which follows, from Thum/Kaiser (1958) is one which I can bear to listen to more than once: http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Mus/BWV66-Mus.htm

Interestingly, Leusink has a similar approach; but I prefer this non-HIP performance with large town-hall (maybe) organ with swell pedals allowing the organist to display some subtle variety of expression. I would personally look to change the instrumental timbre for the `arioso' section (not heard in this excerpt). Rilling's harpsichord [1] is poorly recorded and merely rattles/ tinkles in the background, so we are left with continuously droning single notes on continuo strings, which soon becomes tiring.
---------
However, Rilling [1] is fine in the following duet, where we have a punchy continuo line, a lively dance rhythm, a superb violin solo, and lovely duet from acceptable voices (despite their vibrato), all adding up to most enjoyable music. Here the harpsichord tinkles away endearingly - the other performers convey the significant musical material.

The Herreweghe [4] and Gardiner [6] solo violinists have blatantly HIP mannerisms I dislike - eg, wide variation in dynamics mostly at a weak level (one internet commentator has referred to sucplaying as effete - admittedly subjective); notice that brittle, long note, very soft in Gardiner, played absolutely without vibrato. (Rilling [1] has a trill on this note). Suzuki's violinist [9] strikes me as one of the period violinists with a more `natural-sounding' technique. Herreweghe's version of this duet - the slowest and quietest - lacks the vitality of the other recordings.
-------
The conclusion of the chorale is fascinating. The last phrase containing just two words - Kyrie eleis : "Lord have mercy" - is very richly harmonised (reminding me of harmonies from the B Minor Mass, I think). Julian's observation that the resurrection, while a cause for joy, is also an event of the utmost seriousness, is confirmed I think, by Bach ending this cantata with these words and these harmonies, and the final Tierce de Picardie mentioned by Peter has an all-encompassing magnificence.

Thomas Braatz wrote (March 22, 2006):
Neil Halliday wrote:
>>If you thought the violins hit a very high note at the top of this run in the second ritornello, you are right - it's the 2nd A above the treble clef.<<
Designated as a3 (which should look like a to the power of 3), this is the extreme top of the range (the highest note) that Bach uses anywhere in his violin parts in his entire oeuvre. Here is the list: BWV 66/1 m59; BWV 232 (Laudamus) m58; and BWV 1045 (Sinfonia) m118. [This is from a list provided in Ulrich Prinz' book "J. S. Bachs Instrumentarium" (2005).

BWV 66/1 is a parody of BWV 66a/8 (a Cöthen birthday cantata). For the latter occasion, excellent, out-of-town violinists were hired (a record of payments has been located): a concert master J. G. Lienigke from Merseburg and J. G. Vogler from Leipzig (the organist at the New Church and also particularly known as a violinist). Also playing along were the regular, well-paid musicians of the Cöthen Court Chapel.

Raymond Joly wrote (March 22, 2006):
[To Julian Mincham] I am sorry I seem obscure to you, and maybe to others too. What I mean is that persons of religious inclination tend to flights of idle speculation, but that the same can be observed in others who pride themselves on their being wonderfully rational. It is a universal tendency.One thing seems to me quite clear: after the quotation marks at the end of the lines lifted straight out of your email, everything else has been added by me.

Ed Myskowski wrote (March 23, 2006):
I have been enjoying the comments and analysis, thanks to all providers.

I have been listening to my two recordings (Herreweghe [4] and Rilling [1]) anticipating my first opportunity to jump into the chronological thread with a comparison. Alas, not to be. My Rilling LP turns out to be an unlisted version of the original 1971 recording, with different alto (Hildegard Laurich) and hence different versions of BWV 66 (1, 5, 6). Rather than rush into print (or cyberspace), I would rather give both a better listen, and organized (perhaps even brief) response.

I have noticed discussion of how Rilling's interpretations degenerated as time went on. I also notice that the change in personnel from LP to CD is the alto, but the opening chorus (BWV 66/1) was also recorded again for the "official" CD [1] release. To my suspicious mind, this smacks of lawyers.

Lest you think I object to the legal (barrister?) occupation:
(1) My only son is a lawyer
(2) On the authority of John Harbison (personal communication, 3/19/06, concert talk previously reported, re BWV 227), Paul the Apostle was both lawyer and Rabbi.

A question (mostly aimed at English as the only language participants, but all welcome): if a lawyer's briefs are brief, why does he (or she, of course!) need to carry them in a briefcase? Dodging the entire issue of briefs as a word for "short underwear". Knickers?

Ed Myskowski wrote (March 23, 2006):
The following duplicates an earlier post (already archived under BWV 66) with reference to a newly created (Feb. 2006) resource, just in time for Easter! Not to be missed, if only to appreciate the effort the creators put into the compilation of a wide (indeed!) range of references.

Although the information about this chorale melody is only indirectly referred to in the link above, readers can obtain a wealth of information about the chorale melody at: http://www.bach-cantatas.com/CM/Christ-ist-erstanden.htm

Easter? A bit early? Or a day late (not to say a dollar short) based on this weeks cantata (BWV 66, Easter Monday). All is wellen that ends wellen.

Tom Hens wrote (March 23, 2006):
Raymond Joly wrote:
<snip>
< What I mean is that persons of religious inclination tend to flights of idle speculation, but that the same can be observed in others who pride themselves on their being wonderfully rational. It is a universal tendency. >

Perhaps it's more universal in some than in others. But one should be aware of this tendency, and through rational thinking do one's best to compensate for it. This idea has crystallized into what is now called the scientific method. You'll find very few flights of idle speculation in peer-reviewed scientific journals.

Ed Myskowski wrote (March 23, 2006):
[To Tom Hens] At the risk (slight) of being repetitious, I would like to add, well said! Aloha, Ed (rhymes with said)

And as I read on, I might as well repeat (publicly) the Boston vocabulary for snow, sleet, freezing rain, mixed precipitation (the worst), and snizzle (the neologism for snow and drizzle). Just plain drizzle doesn't count, that is only rain. We have plenty of words for that also. Not as many as in Ireland. Or even UK. But we are getting there.

Raymond Joly wrote (March 23, 2006):
[To Tom Hens] Full agreement with Tom Hens. I am enthusiastically on the side of science. Let us remember, though, that it is scientists-humans-who decide what science is, what the legitimate objects of science are, what are the boundaries of science, what topics are likely to help one land research grants and publication in the right journals, and so on. We will not suppose such decisions are made without any interference from individual fancy, fashions, group interests, and the might of the powers that be, shall we?

Science determines what is possible for mankind to do; shall it also decide what is humanity and what is good for mankind? Sometimes even such untrustworthy fellows as devout 18th-century Lutherans might have valuable hints concerning all these things in the world that are more than our philosophy and science can dream.

I enjoy having so stimulating partners.

Neil Halliday wrote (March 23, 2006):
Julian Mincham wrote:
"Of note is the marked contrast between the A sections and the middle B section ('away with tears, terror and abandonment'). The theme here is based upon a series of repeated notes..the texture is generally light."
The continuo's first three bars of these "repeated" 1/16th notes, namely D,F#,A,A,A,A in bar one (B section), are in fact almost identical in shape to the first three bars (see below) of notes that occur in the unison upper strings including violas at the very start of the A section, when the continuo is silent; then the continuo, after one bar of "swirling scales" (a good description of those 1/32 note passages) also immediately takes up this figure (modified in bar three) as the swirling scales move upward through the upper strings. In the B section, the continuo modulates into the minor key via the 4 repeated A#s in bar two; and later in the B section, one can hear this figure (minor key) in the unison upper strings, in a passage whose orchestration seems Mozartean in its simplicity and transparency.

So this 1/16th note figure, which at the very beginning of the score appearsin the unison upper strings over three bars as: D,F#,A,A,A,A; C#,E,A,A,A,A; D,F#,A,A,A,A, repeated (after one bar of swirls) in the continuo, is quite significant in structural terms, over the entire movement.

Neil Halliday wrote (March 23, 2006):
Ed Myskowski wrote:
>>"My Rilling LP [1] turns out to be an unlisted version of the original 1971 recording, with different alto (Hildegard Laurich) and hence different versions of BWV 66 (1, 5, 6).">>
[1] Ed, for the opening chorus, I wonder if you can say how much slower (presumably) Rilling was in 1971/2, compared with the exciting, brisk 9.49 elapsed time in 1981? (There is no change in speed for the B section in 1981).

The CD booklet claims 1,4, and 5 were re-recorded; and Huttenlocher replaced Schöne in the B section of 66/1. No mention of Laurich at all in the CD booklet, only Gabriel Schreckenbach (alto), but this could be a mistake. BTW, movements 2/3 and 6 sound pretty good, so I suppose Rilling did not feel the need to re-record them, in contrast, presumably, to 1, 4 and 5 (and as I said, he still didn't get it right in 4, IMO). I don't think lawyers were involved :-).

Ed Myskowski wrote (March 23, 2006):
Neil Halliday wrote:
< So this 1/16th note figure, which at the very beginning of the score appears in the unison upper strings over three bars as: D,F#,A,A,A,A; C#,E,A,A,A,A; D,F#,A,A,A,A, repeated (after one bar of swirls) in the continuo, is quite significant in structural terms, over the entire movement. >
Tough going in text, even for those of us who can cope with a score (when we have one). But I have quickly come to respect your analysis, so I will give it a go, before posting comments. Especially re structure. I repeat my comment from last week: your analysis, Julian's, and all others, add greatly to my listening pleasure. In this case, I think we are listening to a musical miracle trying to recreate the experience of a theological miracle and mystery - resurrection. Given the challenge, pretty good music!

Ed Myskowski wrote (March 23, 2006):
Neil Halliday wrote:
< Ed, for the opening chorus, I wonder if you can say how much slower (presumably) Rilling [1] was in 1971/2, compared with the exciting, brisk 9.49 elapsed time in 1981? (There is no change in speed for the B section in 1981). >
Neil, I will have to take a day or two to respond. I was preparing to give a casual listen thinking my LP was the same as the CD (which I do not have). When I realized the difference, I slowed down.

I enjoy your analysis, my previous post crossed in cyberspace, or wherever. I was intending to absorb what I can from your comments, listen, and write. I will just do exactly that. Forgive the attempts at humor, I am here for the music.

I can tell you one thing, the violin a3 is clear as a bell, even on the old LP! Thanks to all involved for pointing it out.

Eric Begerud wrote (March 23, 2006):
Raymond Joly wrote:
<< What I mean is that persons of religious inclination tend to flights of idle speculation, but that the same can be observed in others who pride themselves on their being wonderfully rational. It is a universal tendency. >>
Tom Hens wrote:
< Perhaps it's more universal in some than in others. But one should be aware of this tendency, and through rational thinking do one's best to compensate for it. This idea has crystallized into what is now called the scientific method. You'll find very few flights of idle speculation in peer-reviewed scientific journals. >
I will grant that one does not often stumble on metaphysics in "scientific" journals. (I suppose that is what is meant by idle speculation.) But no speculation? Your understanding of scientific method is very different from mine. Journals have dominated the natural sciences for the last century or so, and I can't off-hand think of a major advance in any scientific field that did not start with what the scientists themselves considered speculation. Educated speculation no doubt, but speculation nevertheless. Think how long it took plate tectonics to go from "interesting but wacky" to the holy writ. Ditto concerning the Big Bang. A few years back I knew a gent at Berkeley who was working with a team on a paper that postulated how life on earth might have begun due to an impact by an asteroid, comet or some other chance visitor. I asked him if this was something he could "prove" and he answered, "nope, but it'll kick up some dust." The local physics dons up the street are mightily divided on "string theory" which is a concept I find utterly incomprehensible. I think it was Whitehead who commented that "The universe may not be stranger than we think: it may be stranger than we can think." Bet there is a lot of dust being kicked up.
(Of course I suppose one could simply define something published as being purposeful as opposed to idle speculation, but let's not take disorder out of scientific method. It would ruin all the fun.)

BTW: thanks to the recent thread concerning mezzos and countertenors, I've been listening to a lot of solo cantatas done by males and females. Stumbled on a Naxos recording by Marianne Kielland that I liked a lot. Anyway it included Schlage doch with lots of bells: not the king Quasimodo would have tended to, but real bells. Sweet.

Julian Mincham wrote (March 23, 2006):
Ed Myskowski writes:
< I repeat my comment from last week: your analysis, Julian's, and all others, add greatly to my listening pleasure >
Dear Ed Thank you for your comments.

I also find Neil's observations of what happens in the musical composition of great interest. No matter how much one listens to this music or ponders over the score, there is always something new and exciting to be found. True, I think of many of the best composers but particularly true of JSB.

Julian Mincham wrote (March 23, 2006):
Eric Bergerud writes:
< I can't off-hand think of a major advance in any scientific field that did not start with what the scientists themselves considered speculation. >
May I add a little to this interesting exchange? . Most creative (including scientific) endeavour emerges, I think from initial speculation, observation, postulation and experimentation. The joy of of discussing such a canon as the JSB cantatas is that it allows us, listeners and players, to follow all these processes AND still enjoy the thrill of being deeply moved by the inate power of the music itself and further discoveries (analytical, cultural, social etc.) one continues to make about it.

In a sense this idea lay behind one of my earlier emails which Raymond Joly seems to have completey misread (I say 'seems' because I am still not sure what he meant to say). In his extract (copied below) he says that Christians may hit on points escaping non-believers. Exactly so. So might Buddists, Hindus, Jews or atheists. This was precisely my point in declaring a position; one's religious (or political) position is very likely to colour the way in which one perceives such works and the tapestries of debate are enriched through the exchange of such different perceptions. One is under no obligation to declare one's position of course, but I often feel that it enriches conversation and avoids misunderstandings if one has some idea of where the other person is coming from.

And just to make the record clear I did not assert, as R Joly implies, that the atheist position was more rational than or superior to others; it is simply another perspective. Nor did I praise myself, or indeed anyone, for taking up a rational position. Any genuine lover of good music knows well that there is a point where no degree of rationality can explain the deep emotional response which it provokes. I distrust anyone who claims that it can and suspect that they have not fully absorbed the music's power to move.

Raymond Joly wrote
< Indeed, I am sure devout Christians are likely to hit on relevant points in the productions of a devout Christian that would have escaped non-believers. And as to straying into ground- and endless speculations, experience has taught us that it is a universal tendency no of wishing to be rational will eradicate-still less acting like the Pharisee and praising onsself for being so wonderfully rational. >

Ed Myskowski wrote (March 24, 2006):
Neil Halliday wrote:
< Ed, for the opening chorus, I wonder if you can say how much slower (presumably) Rilling [1] was in 1971/2, compared with the exciting, brisk 9.49 elapsed time in 1981? (There is no change in speed for the B section in 1981).
The CD booklet claims 1,4, and 5 were re-recorded; and Huttenlocher replaced Schöne in the B section of 66/1. No mention of Laurich at all in the CD booklet, only Gabriel Schreckenbach (alto), but this could be a mistake. >
No mistake, the sections with Laurich were the ones re-recorded [1]. Aryeh, I should have emphasized that only Schöne is on the LP, apparently both basses in different sections on the CD.

Neil, I will have to defer an answer regarding elapsed time for a while, my turntable quit before I could time the opening chorus. I did listen to it once more after you asked. To my ears, it does sound like the B section on the LP is slower from the outset than the A section, in fact it sounds like an extended ritardando, followed by a quick accelerando to original tempo when the A section returns. I hope that terminology is correct, not words I toss around often. The A section is brisk indeed, perhaps a bit quicker than Herrewegh, which is listed at 9:41, but without any noticeable slowing at the B section. I will try to provide a few more details when I have a turntable available again. Also perhaps a few performance comparisons, but you and Julian have provided us with plenty of listening details.

BTW, I think you are correct that there is no reason to suspect possible legal considerations in the decision to record some sections again. Just a passing thought on my part. I have another LP with Laurich (BWV 63) which appears to have been released intact on CD.

Ed Myskowski wrote (March 25, 2006):
Peter Smaill wrote (March 18, 2006):
[To Ed Myskowski] Two thoughts on this Cantata [(BWV 181)] and the interesting tension pointed out in the imagery of 181/2, between the "the hearts of stone that one day will be ruined" "that rocks that split themselves in pieces" and "the angel's hand moves the Grave's stone."
The gap between this Cantata for 13 February and the first performance of the SJP on 7 April 1724 is but seven weeks.

I appreciated these comments when you first wrote them, even more so after moving ahead a few days from the first performance of SJP (BWV 245) to first performance of BWV 66 (adapted from BWV 66a). I did not take the time to listen to complete SJP, but I did revisit the earthquake scene "die felsen zerissen (and the rocks rent)" before turning to BWV 66. I was struck by the comparison/contrast between the swirling downward run of the earthquake music in SJP and the swirling upward runs pointed out by Neil and Julian in BWV 66/1.

I have lost track of whether someone posted it, or whether I only noted it in Wolff (B:LM, p.272), but the sequence of music actually played over a calendar period, for example Feb. to April 1724 (including SJP) is probably instructive, enjoyable, and a potential subject for future discussion, filling in the gap from BWV 181 to BWV 66. I have also been wondering if Bach may have created some of those secular or occasional cantatas (BWV 66a chorus, for example) with possible future theological use already in mind? Not surmising, just speculating. It certainly sounds like resurrection music to me. Dance music, as well, Marie Jensen wrote (March 13, 2002).

Peter Smaill wrote (March 25, 2006):
[To Ed Myskowski] One of the connected thoughts prompted by the setting of "Kyrie eleis," which allows BWV 66 to close on a major chord befitting of Easter, is the incidence of the Greek expression (thus, or as "kyrie eleison,") as the ending to several Cantatas. Is there any significance in the use of "Kyries" by the librettists, or anything special about Bach's reaction to the ancient prayer to a compassionate Almighty for mercy?

The Kyries are indeed old in a liturgical sense, the vestigial remains of the Litany introduced into the Roman rite, probably by Pope Gelasius (492-96). Only by the eight century do they become an essential feature of the Mass, with the triple format (as in the MBM) emerging in the Gallican rite. Following the first celebration of the Mass in German at Christmas 1521, Luther moved in 1523 to define an interim liturgy (in Latin, sticking close to Roman forms) in 1523 and by 1526 the Gloria had been (temporarily?) dropped - but not the Kyries. So they are a constant thread in all the Churches of both East and West.

Bach's first use after the Easter Monday Cantata BWV 66 appears to me to be BWV 91, "Gelobet seist du, Jesu Christ," for Christmas Day 1724. Dürr notes that "In the closing Chorale, the horns have partially independent parts.....it gives rise to a spirited final cadence on the words "Kyrie Eleis' which distantly recalls the circling figure from the opening movement and thereby describes an arc back to the beginning of the Cantata." The hymn is by Luther, the effect splendid rather than penitential.

A late occurrence is BWV 197, the wedding Cantata "Gott ist unsre Zuversicht" (c. 1736), setting Luther's "Nun bitten wir den heiligen Geist," with a sudden appearance of a c natural creating a moment of harmonic interest as the "Kyrie Eleison" moves to a final chord of A major. This time, the mood is mystical and fervent.

BWV 64, "Sehet, welche eine Liebe," for Christmas Tuesday 1723, also sets Luther's version of the "Alleluia" from the Roman rite, "Gelobet seist du, "a version of the tenth century sequence, "Grates omnes reddamus." The simple harmonisation reveals the suitably archaic modal (?Mixolydian) tune, with the suggestion of F sharp being flattened back unexpectedly to F natural in the "Kyrie" section.

The most IMO beautiful harmonisation of the "Kyrie" occurs in the well-known solo cantata BWV 169, "Gott soll allein mein Herze haben," where Bach sets the mystical hymn to Love, "Du suesse Liebe", with sequences of suspensions and a daring exposed octave A in the upper parts crashing against D and E in the bass. It is, however, for no very special feast, composed for the 18th Sunday after Trinity; the significance is the Gospel that the first commandment is love of God and one's neighbour. (8 October 1724).

There may be more, but on this selection we have three sources for the inclusion of "Kyrie eleis(on)" in Chorales:

-the medieval hymn "Christ ist erstanden" (BWV 66)
-Luther's chorale "Gelobet seist du", (BWV 64/BWV 91) and
-Luther's chorale, "Nun bitten wir" (BWV 197/BWV 169)

I leave it to others to discern any pattern beyond the observation that Bach's subtle and beautiful harmonisation of the words and associated Chorales is evident whenever the ancient text occurs.

Douglas Cowling wrote (March 25, 2006):
BWV 66. "Mercy me!"

Peter Smaill wrote:
< One of the connected thoughts prompted by the setting of "Kyrie eleis," which allows BWV 66 to close on a major chord befitting of Easter, is the incidence of the Greek expression (thus, or as "kyrie eleison,") as the ending to several Cantatas. Is there any significance in the use of "Kyries" by the librettists, or anything special about Bach's reaction to the ancient prayer to a compassionate Almighty for mercy? >
The "Kyrie" was sung everSunday (see my ordo of mass in the week's cantata introduction). "Kyrieleis" was such a popular expression that it may well be considered a German word in the way the Hebrew "alleluia" and "hosanna" are (anyone have a German dictionary with historical citations?) It is the equivalent of the English exclamation, "Mercy!" It was certainly used in macaronic poetry in which Latin tags alternated with German poetry. It was used simiarly in medieval and Renaissance English.

Thomas Braatz wrote (March 25, 2006):
[To Douglas Cowling]
See: http://www.bach-cantatas.com/BWV169-D.htm
and search for "Leis" on the page.

The DWB gives
OHG (Old High German,roughly 700-1000 AD):
Christe/Kyrie ginâde, ginada, ginado + Dat. mir, uns, etc.

It would appear that outside of churches where the Kyrie eleison was sung or spoken (as an 'acclamation') by the congregation, the phrase is not documented in common use. Very early the equivalent to modern German word "Gnade" ('mercy') was substituted for the Greek phrase in the every-day spoken language.

There was an attempt at a revival of 'eleison' by the Pietists as the expression of the consciousness of one's sinfulness in an appendix of a hymnal from 1741 where simply 'eleison' appears at the end of a German prayer. However, 'eleison' is not documented elsewhere as a word commonly used elsewhere in German outside of a church setting.

See: Kyrie Eleison [General Topics]

Raymond Joly wrote (March 25, 2006):
BWV 66. "Mercy me!" -- The word LEIS, LEISE

Douglas Cowling" wrote:
«"Kyrieleis" was such a popular expression that it may well be considered a German word in the way the Hebrew "alleluia" and "hosanna" are (anyone have a German dictionary with historical citations?)».
Indeed, the so-called Grimms' Dictionary, also known as «Deutsches Wörterbuch» (DWB), tells us s.v. KYRIE ELEISON that that formula, complete or abridged, was often used outside of church meaning «God have mercy» : one sighed and had one's heart full of kyrie eleison, an inept coachman had his horses running around aimlessly kirieleisen. The author of the article adduces only those two examples, though.

On the other hand, I happen to remember a scrap of information gleaned in the article CANTATA of MGG or Grove, I do not remember which, and here is the gist of LEIS, LEISE in the same dictionary:

«LEIS, LEISE, m. geistliches lied, mhd. leise als häufiger ausdruck für den geistlichen volksgesang, gekürzt aus dem rufe kyrie eleison (theil 5, 2916 [this is actually vol. XI and was quoted above]), den das volk melodisch beim gottesdienste erschallen liesz, und aus welchem sich der christliche gemeindegesang herausbildete.»

- That is: «Noun, masculine. A sacred song, in Middle High German LEISE; often used to describe sacred music sung by the people; it is an abbreviated form of the invocation KYRIE ELEISON, that the community brought forth as a melody during service; from it evolved the Christian congregation's singing.»
The DWB goes on telling of a collection of «christliche lobgesenge und leiszen» («Christian songs of praise and "leisen"») published by Spangenberg in 1545. LEISE can also be a section from a psalm, for example the «zwei und zwenzig gesetzlin, oder leisen» («the twenty two strophes or "leisen") of Psalm 119 Luther found such a wonderful example of verbal abundance.

Thomas Braatz wrote (March 26, 2006):
Raymond Joly wrote:
>>On the other hand, I happen to remember a scrap of information gleaned in the article CANTATA of MGG or Grove, I do not remember which, and here is the gist of LEIS, LEISE in the same dictionary<<
Much of this information can be found in my translation of the article on 'Congregational Singing" from the MGG1 at: http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Articles/Congregational-Singing.htm

The use of 'Kyrie eleison'/'Kyrieleison'/'Kyrioleis' as an equivalent to "Mercy me" is quite rare in common parlance inGerman, as Raymond Joly had pointed out.

Teddy Kayfman wrote (March 26, 2006):
Thomas Braatz wrote:
"The use of 'Kyrie eleison'/'Kyrieleison'/'Kyrioleis' as an equivalent to "Mercy me" is quite rare in common parlance inGerman..".
--------------------------------------------------------
Enclosed, please find more details regarding the use of Kyrie Eleison in German, as follows :

"Another popular use of the Kyrie was in the pre-Reformation German hymn form known as Leisen. Leisen hymns concluded each stanza with the refrain, "Lord, have mercy." (In German, the Greek phrase Kyrie eleison was often contracted to Kyrieleis, from which the word Leisen is derived.) Several of Luther's hymns use this form, including a Christmas hymn (LW 35; TLH 80), a Pentecost hymn (LW 155; TLH 231), and a communion hymn (LW 238; TLH 313). In his hymn on the Ten Commandments (LW 331; TLH 287), Luther also uses this form"(http://www.lcms.org/).

Raymond Joly wrote (March 26, 2006):
Thomas Braatz wrote:
< The use of 'Kyrie eleison'/'Kyrieleison'/'Kyrioleis' as an equivalent to "Mercy me" is quite rare in common parlance in German, as Raymond Joly had pointed out. >
This is not quite what I wrote. I pointed out that the author of «Kyrie eleison» in DWB, for reasons best known to himself, presents but two occurrences in full quotation-how does a man feel on reaching column 2916 in his volume and discovering that the last word he has to deal with is «God have mercy»? But I also said that, according to him, «that formula, complete or abridged, was often used outside of church meaning "God have mercy"».

To set the record completely straight, I will admit that Hildebrand did not actually write «often». He offers quotation 1 as just an example («z.B.»), and prefaces quotation 2 thus: «Man rief in allerlei Not wirklich so»: «They really used that word to cry out in all sorts of troubles».

Kyrioleis on scholarship.

Thomas Braatz wrote (March 26, 2006):
Raymond Joly wrote:
>>prefaces quotation 2 thus: «Man rief in allerlei Not wirklich so»: «They really used that word to cry out in all sorts of troubles»<<
Are you referring to the quotation from Schuppius citing Keisersberg?

Then R. Hildebrand may indeed have been very tired and careless in assuming that Schuppius who was most likely translating from a Latin original by Keisersberg or quoting from a faulty translation thereof of which there were many, had before him a faulty translation.

Imagine this situation: The translator of Keisersberg's original (whether this was Schuppius or someone else's translation which he simply copied) may well have been faced with seeing the Greek phrase in the middle of the Latin text and proceeded to treat this differently by simply lifting the Greek phrase as is into the German translation while Keisersberg, in his original, was describing in Latin with the help of a Greek phrase that he knew his readers would recognize a situation he encountered on the streets of Straßburg, or on a pilgrimage to a certain destination and would know that the German equivalent would have replaced the Greek phrase. The appearance of the actual German words for 'Kyrie eleison' would appear unscholarly in the type of tracts which Keisersberg was prone to write. Also, if the actual Greek phrase was indeed spoken by common people, it could easily have been part of a pilgrimage, which is an extension of the use of 'Kyrie eleis' as sung or 'acclaimed' in church. For instance, the singing of Leisen (which originated from this tradition) could also take place outside the church itself, but nevertheless was part of a religious setting. This is quite different from the relatively rare use of "kyrioleis" (and its equivalents) in normal, everyday situations where the German equivalent would certainly be more apt to be used.

If we had a quotation from by Grimmelshausen, for instance, from his "Simplicissimus", then the potential problems caused by a possible faulty translation wouno longer apply.

Raymond Joly wrote (March 26, 2006):
[To Thomas Braatz] Just a few words before I utter a heartfelt KYRLEISE or KIRLEIS and let the matter rest at that.

The short article «Kyrie eleison» in DWB begins with some general remarks about that liturgical formula and its long and manifold history among the German people, then illustrates it with a quotation from Schuppius, a 17th-century author; we are not told in which of his works this sentence is to be found (the early collaborators to DWB were dreadfully sloppy in this respect). The next statement, the one quoted below about people crying «Kyrieleis» in their predicaments, is in italics, which means that it is written by the lexicographer and not taken from a source. It serves to introduce the story of the coachman, an excerpt now precisely attributed to a book published in 1512 by a certain Keysersberg.

I am sure Thomas Braatz has solid reasons to suppose that Schuppius was quoting from Keysersberg and that the crux of the matter lies in translation; but I cannot guess them.
It's obvious that «kyrleise» and the rest flourished mainly in religious contexts. But it is very possible that they were used much more extensively, as Hildebrand states they were. We do not restrict «Thank God» to the occasions where the divine service has «Deo gratias», do we? In order to investigate that, Hildebrand's volume «K», splendid scholarly achievement as it is, is insufficient, and not only because it is 133 years old (142 if you start counting with the first installment). We need documentation concerning slang and colloquial language, dialects, folklore and so on.

Those who will do that research are welcome to it: it is not forbidden to stray from the pursuits of the Bach Cantatas Website. But the prehistory of the cantata, including the rise and development of «Leisen», is more to our point (see previous messages from Th. Braatz).

Thomas Braatz wrote (March 26, 2006):
Raymond Joly wrote:
>>I am sure Thomas Braatz has solid reasons to suppose that Schuppius was quoting from Keysersberg and that the crux of the matter lies in translation; but I cannot guess them.<<
They are indicated in the Hildebrand entry in the DWB and the information given separately on Schuppius and Keisersberg in the "Quellenverzeichnis" ("source register"). The rest is reasonable conjecture.

>>We do not restrict «Thank God» to the occasions where the divine service has «Deo gratias», do we?<<
But we also do not normally go about saying "Deo gratias" in an everyday situation to express "Thank God" just because we use and/or understand "Deo gratias" when used in a church or church-related setting, do we?

Raymond Joly wrote (March 27, 2006):
[To Thomas Braatz] «Leisen» are a matter of interest for students of German sacred music; whether people said «Kirleis» when they were in trouble is not. I will answer Mr. Braatz off list.

Ed Myskowski wrote (April 21, 2006):
BWV 66

Neil Halliday wrote: (re BWV 66)
< Ed, for the opening chorus, I wonder if you can say how much slower (presumably) Rilling [1] was in 1971/2, compared with the exciting, brisk 9.49 elapsed time in 1981? >
The earlier version times at 10:05, on a turntable with speed control, timed by wristwatch with sweep second hand. Should be accurate plus/minus a couple seconds.

 

Continue on Part 3

Cantatas BWV 66 & BWV 66a: Complete Recordings of BWV 66 | Recordings of Individual Movements from BWV 66 | Details of BWV 66a | Discussions: Part 1 | Part 2 | Part 3

Recordings & Discussions of Cantatas: Cantatas BWV 1-50 | Cantatas BWV 51-100 | Cantatas BWV 101-150 | Cantatas BWV 151-200 | Cantatas BWV 201-224 | Cantatas BWV Anh | Order of Discussion

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