Recordings/Discussions
Background Information
Performer Bios

Poet/Composer Bios

Additional Information

Recordings & Discussions of Cantatas: Cantatas BWV 1-50 | Cantatas BWV 51-100 | Cantatas BWV 101-150 | Cantatas BWV 151-200 | Cantatas BWV 201-224 | Cantatas BWV Anh | Order of Discussion

Cantata BWV 86
Wahrlich, wahrlich, ich sage euch
Discussions - Part 1

Previous Messages

Charles Francis wrote (March 18, 2000):
Bach's Jesus always has a deep voice, and in cantatas BWV 86 and BWV 87 Jesus actually gets to open the show. This results, not surprisingly, in two superb bass arias, filled with emotion and spiritual power. Both are on Vol. 34 of the Rilling's set [2], and Walter Heldwein gives a powerful performance. The arias are:

BWV 86 "Wahrlich, wahrlich, ich sage euch, so ihr den Vater etwas bitten werdet in meinem Namen, so wird er's euch geben"

BWV 87 "Bisher habt ihr nichts gebeten in meinem Namen".

Any other favourites out there?

Charles Francis wrote (May 27, 2000):
Cantatas for Rogate Sunday (Fifth Sunday after Easter), May 28, 2000
Wahrlich, Wahrlich, ich sage euch, BWV 86 (May 14, 1724)
Bisher habt ihr nichts gebeten in meinen Namen, BWV 87 (May 6, 1725)

For me, these have some of Bach's most moving bass arias. "Wahrlich, Wahrlich, ich sage euch" and "Bisher habt ihr nichts gebeten in meinen Namen" are the only examples I've found in the cantatas where Jesus speaks in 1st person. "Ich will leiden, ich will schweigen" and the closing choral "Muss ich sein betrübet?" are also noteworthy.

 

Discussions in the Week of May 28, 2000

Aryeh Oron wrote (June 1, 2000):
Background

This is the week of BWV 86, according to Jane Newble suggestion. This cantata is sister of BWV 166, which was discussed in this group last week. The structure of both cantatas is almost the same. BWV 166 - Aria (Bass), Aria (Tenor), Chorale (Soprano), Recitative (Bass), Aria (Alto), Chorale. BWV 86 - Aria (Bass), Aria (Alto), Chorale (Soprano), Recitative (Bass), Aria (Tenor), Chorale. The second Aria (No.2) in both cantatas is the longest movement and the playing time of the complete two cantatas is almost the same, though BWV 86 is a little bit shorter. All the reasons that make BWV 166 so attractive exist also here.

As a reference I will use Alec Robertson book - 'The Church Cantatas of J.S. Bach' in the preface before comparisons of the recordings of each movement. I am too busy this week. Therefore I shall compare only the first two movements, although all the others are no less beautiful. This is one of those cantatas, which can stand many repeated hearings. Last week I have listened to all four recordings below, at least five times to each one of them, and I am still hungry to hear more. But after I finish writing to you, I have to start listening to next week cantata (BWV 44). I am comforted by knowing that I will have something to return to when we finish reviewing the complete cycle of the cantatas, some years ahead.

The Recordings

I heard 4 recordings of BWV 86. All of them are from complete cycles of Harnoncourt/Leonhardt, Rilling, Koopman and Jan Leusink. See: Cantata BWV 86 - Recordings (1) to (4).

(1) Nikolaus Harnoncourt (1979)
(2) Helmuth Rilling (1980)
(3) Ton Koopman (1998)
(4) Pieter Jan Leusink (1999)

Mvt. 1: Aria for Bass
'Wahrlich, wahrlich, ich sage euch' (Truly, truly, I say unto you)
Bass, 2 Violin, Viola, Continuo
"As said in discussing the first number of cantata BWV 108, Bach never gives the title 'Aria' to a setting of Christ's words sung in the first person. This fine libretto explores the implications of Christ's promise to his disciples. Bach begins the Bass Aria as a triple fugue. It is the same key as the E Major Fugue in the second book of 'The 48' (No.9) and is filled with the same spiritual and melodic beauty. The three motifs, that are presented simultaneously in the first six bars, are thereafter successively allotted to Christ's words. The interweaving of these themes between voice, strings, and Continuo' the lovely sequential passages, make this a movement of outstanding beauty."

The accompaniment that Harnoncourt (1) supplies to Ruud van der Meer is too jumpy and danceable, that the entry point for his singing is most unsuitable. However the soft edge he has to his voice, helps him to be a very convincing and merciful Jesus. Heldwein (with Rilling) (2) singing has similar characteristics that help him to conquer indefinite accompaniment to achieve similar results to those of van der Meer. There is also certain gloom to the playing of the string and the Continuo in Rilling's recording, which makes the fugal aspect of this movement difficult to follow. Mertens (with Koopman) (3) is at his best in the role of Jesus. The delicate strings are playing around his wonderful and sensitive singing and picture a glamorous aura. I am not a Christian, but to me ears Ramselaar's voice (with Jan Leusink) (4) has all the characteristics identified with Jesus - youthfulness, authority, and mercy. The light and pungent playing of the strings give delicate contrast to the singing of Ramselaar. This is a very unique performance and one of the most satisfying I have heard from Jan Leusink's team so far. On the same level as his rendering of BWV 196, which has already been discussed in this group. 'The interweaving of these themes between voice, strings, and Continuo, the lovely sequential passages', wrote Robertson, and all these aspects are revealed to their best in both Koopman's and Jan Leusink's recordings of this spirited 'movement of outstanding beauty'.

Mvt. 2: Aria for Alto
'Ich will doch wohl Rosen brechen, wenn mich gleich die Dornen stechen' ('I shall then forsooth gather roses if the thorns prick me')
Alto. Violin solo, Continuo
"The words warn that the liberal promise made must be rightly interpreted. The violin solo charmingly suggests the blossoming roses in this very melodious Aria. The words of the middle section express confidence that the prayer of petition will be answered."

Unlike Robertson, I believe that in the first part of this splendid Aria, the Alto part represent the beauty and the odour of the roses and the violin solo represents the pricking thorns. I have never heard such pricking thorns as the sharp playing of the violinist of Harnoncourt (Alice?) transfers (1). The singing of Esswood (with Harnoncourt) is somewhat restrained and some of the charm of this Aria is not revealed. Watts (with Rilling) (2) has very expressive voice, but she does not convey successfully the gentleness of the situation. This performance sounds very nice, until you understand the meaning of the words. Then you realize that the violin playing is not sharp enough to represent rightfully the thorns. The strong aroma of the roses is so evident in Landauer's singing (with Koopman) (3), that the odour is transferred through the speakers and spreading in my room. The thorns in the violin solo playing are sharp, yet not too sharp, exactly the right amount of pain you fill when you are pricked by thorns of roses. I listened very carefully to Buwalda (4), because I was aware from previous discussions, that some members of this list do not like his voice. Indeed, there are some insecurities, but there is also kind of tenderness and gentleness to his singing and slight hesitation, which suit very well the atmosphere of this aria. Jan Leusink's violinist has done well his homework and his playing is very similar to the playing of Koopman's violinist.

Conclusion

Regarding the opening Bass Aria, all the Bass singers deliver high level performance of their parts. The difference is in the accompaniment they get and conseqKoopman achieves the results. I prefer the Alto Aria also in Koopman's recording. Jan Leusink is very close second. The high level of performance of the first two movements in these two recordings is maintained along the remaining movements of this charming cantata. I am so sad that I have to part from it. It gave me many pleasant hours in the last week.

And as always, I would like to hear other opinions, regarding the above mentioned performances, or other recordings.

Marie Jensen wrote (May 30, 2000):
It was hard to move on from catchy BWV 166, but BWV 86 is great too.

We start with Jesus and the gospel of St. John again, and then we go out into the rose garden. Normally I do not connect Bach with a blooming garden scenery, pastoral rural settings perhaps, but romantic flower picking- not really- it belongs to another time- or to the love stories from the opera world, which he never really entered.

The alto aria: "Ich will doch wohl Rosen brechen, Wenn mich gleich die Dornen stechen" is something completely different. The rose is "Kampf und Kleinod" (BWV 12) in one -the earthly struggle- the heavenly reward. Baroque poets loved such contrasts. The rose was also used as a symbol of Christ, growing even in frozen ground or between greedy and hostile thistles. It is easy to find examples of this looking in my hymn book. Here the contrasts of the rose are described: the multitude of beautiful petals and the hostile thorns in one virtuoso violin part with flowing semi-semi quavers (I guess) over staccato "steche-stech" sounds. It is very essential that this contrast can be heard.

Later comes a tenor aria "Gott hilft gewiß; wird gleich die Hülfe aufgeschoben, wird sie doch drum nicht aufgehoben". It is not easy to write music to such a long sentence, which sounds more like a paragraph from a law book than a singable line in a poem. The first time Bach stops at "aufgeschoben". That sounds illogical. The next time fortunately the whole sentence is sung. Great that Bach manages to put music to such a text at all.

In our enthusiasm for Bach's music we often forget, that the cantata texts probably not would have survived without it, apart from the Bible quotations or the chorale texts of course, used today by Christian congregations world wide. Their artistic qualities vary a lot, also the technical. (We all know the terrible meter in "GEführt vor gottlose Leut" from "Christus der uns selig macht" in the second part of St. John BWV 245, or last weeks "sonDERN will ich verharren fest", BWV 166. Yet it is very impressing to listen to how Bach manages to make a very moving duet to "et in unum Dominum Jesum Christum" from the b - minor Mass (BWV 232), an even more complicated text construction than the one mentioned above)

But to get back to the cantata: In the tenor aria hope rises like a fanfare behind every phrase and the singer repeats the consolating word "gewiß, gewiß" again and again, underlined by orchestral pondus.

I know the cantata in 3 versions:
[3] Koopman (Erato, Vol.9) with Rubens, Landauer, Prégardien, Mertens and the ABC.
[4] Leusink (Brilliant Classics) with, Holton, Buwalda, Schoch and Ramselaar and the NBC
[1] A Leonhardt version taped from the radio (not quite sure of the soloists, but probably his usual Esswood, Equiluz, van Egmond team)

Looked upon as a whole none of the versions are bad and they are not very different, so when I end up with preferring Koopman, he wins because of the "Rose-Aria", which for me is the most important movement. In Leonhardt's and Leusink's version the "steche-stech" sounding thorns are very difficult to recognize. The violin play in the Koopman version is fantastic. Both petals and thorns are easily heard.

When it comes to the altos: Buwalda has big problems pronouncing the consonants especially l's and n's. (It sounds like (to be a little rude) he has a potato in his mouth!)

In the tenor (Gott hilft gewiß) aria the Leonhardt orchestra play has a little more pondus than the others, so Gods help seems a little more close here.

Finally and personally: A good friend of mine has been in Leipzig last week and put some roses on Bach's grave on my behalf. What a coincidence --- I shall always remember with gratitude - listening to this cantata...

Ryan Michero wrote (June 3, 2000):
This discussion will be over now that it is beginning due to list delays. But I will post my thoughts on recordings of this work in hopes that people will one day get to read this in the context of the Bach cantatas list web page.

(1) (Harnoncourt) This is one of the times I am sorry for those who for many years knew this cantata only through the Harnoncourt/Leonhardt recordings. Harnoncourt's recording, while not really bad, is mannered and a bit superficial, making this seem like a less satisfying piece of music. With angular lines, overly stressed downbeats, and choppy phrasing, Harnoncourt removes all traces of lyricism from Bach's beautiful Vox Christi bass aria. Ruud van der Meer blustery voice doesn't help the situation. Alice Harnoncourt's violin playing in the "Rose" aria is indeed prickly-- angular and devilishly fleet. Too bad that she sounds a bit off-beat when she plays those fast sequences. Esswood's style of singing isn't suited to this aria, and his lack of expression is not convincing. Bach's lovely chorale with intertwined oboes d'amore sounds nice if a bit rough here, and reliable boy soloist Wiedel sounds fine. Equiluz sounds expressive if strained in the tenor aria, and Harnoncourt's choppy phrasing and unusual stresses make Bach's charming string rhythms sound simply nervous. A disappointing recording.

(3) (Koopman) This recording is a different animal altogether. Koopman and his fine soloists and orchestra really bring out the beauty and charm of this cantata. The opening, semi-fugal aria is gorgeously lyrical in the hands of Koopman, with every turn of phrase savoured and with the lovely chromatic clashes of the strings making their full impact. Mertens' singing of this Vox Christi aria is exemplary--beautifully coloured, gently authoritative, and tenderly lyrical (Has Mertens sung as Christ in recordings of the passions? He's perfect for the role.) The playing of Koopman's reliable violinist Margaret Faultless in the rose aria is indeed faultless--lyrical and expressive but with a thorny edge in the virtuoso passages. Landauer's singing is again wonderful here--I love to listen to his voice. As in BWV 166, he ornaments the da capo repeat a lot, but I again found it convincing in context. He is very good at da capo ornaments, by the way, not just adding trills here and there but echoing some of the phrases of the violin line. The oboes d'amore of the soprano chorale are delectably pungent here, and Sibylla Ruben's restrained singing is fine. (It is a bit perverse to have such a high-powered virtuoso soprano singing a simple chorale. And why didn't Koopman choose the sopranos of his choir to sing here as he did in the equivalent movement of this cantata's sister work, BWV 166?). Prégardien is very fine in the tenor movements, expressive and colourful though strained in his upper tessitura, and Koopman and his orchestra make the instrumental rhythms of the tenor aria really irresistible. The final chorale is clear and expressive. In BWV 86 Koopman shows us what we have been missing while listening to Harnoncourt's recording and proves the piece to be a miniature masterpiece.

(4) (Leusink) Many of the list members know I am not the biggest fan of Pieter Jan Leusink's Bach recordings, but I must admit this is a fine recording, certainly preferable to Harnoncourt though not to Koopman. Leusink's orchestra is more transparent than Koopman's, allowing us to better hear the oboes in the mix. Thisgives theorchestral playing a lovely colour in the opening movement, which Leusink plays somewhere between Harnoncourt's jauntiness and Koopman's sublime lyricism. Bas Ramselaar is very convincing here, beautifully expressive and authoritative though he doesn't melt the heart like Mertens. The violinist John Wilson Meyer in the alto aria is very good, again somewhere between the violin sounds in the versions of Harnoncourt and Koopman. Sytse Buwalda is convincingly expressive and colourful in this movement, but his insecure technique and strange German pronunciation leave much to be desired. (I loved Marie's crack about Buwalda sounding like he has a potato in his mouth! Maybe he had just come from the dentist?) The oboes are lovely if unpolished in the soprano chorale movement. Holton's voice here sounds a bit too insecure, but I do admire its boyish quality. I liked Knut Schoch's expressive singing in the tenor movements, even if his voice isn't really lovely or ideally secure. Leusink again strikes a balance between Harnoncourt's jumpy reading and Koopman's more refined and lovely account. The chorale sounds lovely, topping off a flawed but generally satisfactory reading.

Johan van Veen wrote (July 18, 2000):
Ryan Michero wrote:
(4) < regarding Pieter Jan Leusink recording: (Snip) Sytse Buwalda is convincingly expressive and colourful in this movement, but his insecure technique and strange German pronunciation leave much to be desired. >
Could you tell me please, where his German pronunciation is wrong? I have listened to that aria very carefully, and I am convinced that his German is correct. I have really no idea what you mean.

Ryan Michero wrote (July 21, 2000):
(4) (To Johan van Veen, regarding Sytse Buwalda German pronunciation) Forgive me for being unclear. I didn't mean to say that he was pronouncing the German language wrong, as a non-native speaker might. I know little about the language, and I'm sure Buwalda is a fluent German speaker. I meant to say that somehow the enunciation of his words sounds strange. This comment made more sense in the context of the cantata discussion that week, because earlier Marie Jensen had complained about the way Buwalda enunciated certain consonants (l's and n's). She joked that it sounded like he has a potato in his mouth!

You can see her original post on the cantata in this page above.

 

BWV 86, a rose among cantatas

Peter Bloemendaal wrote (May 27, 2003):
Last Sunday, May 25th, was the Sunday Rogate. The church carefully chose this name – “you must ask” – for the Sunday preceding Ascension Day, the day of Christ’s final physical departure. In the appointed gospel reading – St. John 16: 23-30 – Jesus gives his farewell address to his disciples, although Gethsemane and Golgotha are still to come. Jesus knows He will only be with his disciples for a short time now. St. John relates in Chapters 13 – 18 how, after the Last Supper, Jesus begins to speak to his disciples, wrapping up everything He has taught them over the past three years. Anticipating their bewildering at the events to come, Jesus promises to send them a Comforter. In the “Rogate” reading, Jesus assures these young men that God the Father will give them whatsoever they shall ask him in his name. Life has not been real hard to them, but Jesus knows this will soon be different. The time is coming that they will badly need God’s support and help. But this does not go without saying. First you will have to ask, and then “ye shall receive, that your joy may be full.”

[4] So I decided to listen to BWV 86 and BWV 87, the cantatas Bach composed for this Sunday, respectively in 1724 and ‘25. How rewarding once more, especially “Wahrlich, wahrlich, ich sage euch”. After listening to my heart’s content, I decided to dedicate a few words on the first, although both of them were already discussed on this list in 2000 and 2001. Read the interesting contributions by Marie Jensen, Ryan Michero, Charles Francis and Aryeh Oron, of course. Especially Marie’s comment is original and refreshing. I recommend reading it again or for the first time, while listening. Marie is obviously incited by the alto aria, whereas Charles favours the bass arias. That is typically Bach. It is always hard to say which movement appeals to you most.

The first movement “Wahrlich, wahrlich, ich sage euch” (Mvt. 1) is a literal quotation from the appointed reading. Bach indicates it as “Basso Solo” although it sounds like an aria. Arias, though textually not unimportant, were written for their beautiful melodies and even in Bach’s church music they turn out to be show pieces for the soloists. To Bach’s mind, the emphasis should be on the words of Jesus and not on the virtuosity of the singer. Operatic singing would be totally wrong here. To Aryeh’s observation, “Ramselaar's voice (with Pieter Jan Leusink) has all the characteristics identified with Jesus - youthfulness, authority, and mercy –, I would like to add that his rendering of Christ’s words is exemplary because here is a perfect blend of frugality and expressiveness. I love his modest singing. Here is a full voice in full control. This interpretation adds greatly to the unity of this fugal arioso, the voice being in complete harmony with the strings and the oboe d’amore.

The text of the aria for alto (Mvt. 2) modifies the seemingly unlimited promise Jesus has just given to his disciples. No roses without thorns, but although the thorns will prick you, we can put our trust in Jesus, the rose of Sharon in the Christian tradition (Song of Solomon 2:1). And no matter how solitary the wilderness may be in our lives, we have the promise, “the desert shall rejoice, and blossom as the rose” (Isaiah 35:1). Again we are reminded that God’s promise is not unconditional. Prayer is essential: Rogate, betet und flehet, ask and beseech. Remarkable though, that whereas the rose is mentioned only twice in the Bible, it should become a beloved symbol in Christian poetry: “Es ist eine Rose entsprungen”, and even more in romantic secular poetry: “My love is like a red, red rose…” Dürr suggests that the figured ornamentation of the violin represents the heavenly glory, the hope of those who put their trust in the Lord. Who would argue with that. Yet, I agree with Marie and Aryeh that the prickly character of the violin’s agitated semiquavers rather reminds us of the thorns, the “Trübsal” we all will have to face in our lives. This is a very demanding aria for the violin solo. The prickly thorns must sting, yet be kept in check in wonderful concord with the alto voice expressing the joy about the rose as a symbol of divine love. The atmosphere is one of mixed feelings in which faith finally overcomes all perils. Thus the violin stops her “stechen” when the alto sings out her creed “Weil es mir sein Wort verspricht.” What a brilliant aria. Great playing by John Wilson Meyer, though he lacks some overall pungency. Glorious singing by Sytse Buwalda. Utterly convincing. Bravo!

The soprano aria (Mvt. 3) is the 16th stanza of the hymn “Kommt her zu mir, spricht Gottes Sohn” by Georg Grünwald (1530). Two oboi d’amore are in concert with the basso continuo and the soprano. Remarkable is the very sober soprano part, hardly any embellishments, just the cantus firmus and only some minor coloraturas on “seinem Namen” and “Christum”. Another stroke of genius! Through my Sennheiser Ovation open headphones you hear the directness of the recording. The clicking of the valves accompany the playing of the woodwinds throughout the aria. Ruth Holton’s unpretentious, unadorned rendition creates an almost chaste testimony. I see a nun kneeling in a chapel, tranquillity, a firm belief with, the background, the heavenlymusic of the oboes.

The tenor recitative (Mvt. 4) compares God’s trustworthiness to that of the world. Amazing thought that God’s promises must be fulfilled that we might see his pleasure and joy. Confident singing by Knut Schoch, with an affirmative final chord by the basso continuo.

Gott hilft gewiß” (Mvt. 5). Bach knew quite well that when you are in doubt you have to hammer it in: “Do not despair. One thing is sure. God will help you.”, Frequent repetition, so familiar in TV commercials and promotive plugging by DJ’s and VJ’s today, has always been a mighty tool to hammer the truth home. “Doubt” was considered to be Satan’s most powerful weapon. The only way to fight doubt is to keep on convincing yourself or being convinced that God will never fail you. So this continually repeated phrase is not just a statement of faith but rather a reinforcement of faith. Knut Schoch has the kind of voice befitting this assignment, supported by the full string section and the Basso continuo reliable in the background.

The uncomplicated chorale (Mvt. 6), the 11th stanza of the hymn “Es ist das Heil uns kommen her”, forms the natural conclusion to this hope-giving cantata, a rose among cantatas.

Dick Wursten wrote (May 28, 2003):
[To Peter Bloemendaal] I highly appreciated your inspired and spiritual comments on BWV 86, but have a few comments on your introductory line about the origin of the name of this Sunday "Rogate": You wrote:
"Last Sunday, May 25th, was the Sunday Rogate. The church carefully chose this name - "you must ask" - for the Sunday preceding Ascension Day" .... "In the "Rogate" reading, Jesus assures these young men that God the Father will give them whatsoever they shall ask him in his name."

The gospel-reading you refer to as the "Rogate-Reading" is St. Johns gospel 16: 23-30. Jesus says: "Ask and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full."
Surprise: Hieronymus Latin translation of the gospel, the Vulgata, John 16: 24, doesnot use the verb "rogare", but "petere". So it reads: "Petite et accipietis, ut gaudium vestrum sit plenum".

If your introductory-line were true, the name of the sunday would have been: Sunday Petite. (Imagine you are French-speaking: Dimanche Petite ;-)

AFAIK the name of this sunday: 'Rogate' is linked to the oecological interdependance of men and nature. We -estranged modern men and women- live in oblivion, have lost consciousness of our manyfold links with nature, but in old days people were very aware of it : they had two special occasions to 'come to gods throne' because of this 'state of affairs'. Once to ask for a blessing over everything that grows on the fields and once to 'give thanks' for the fruit of nature that God has given. The last one we still know in a secularised form (Thanksgiving), the first one on a sunday in Spring, before Ascension Day: Therefore called sunday 'Rogate'.

Peter Bloemendaal wrote (May 28, 2003):
Dick Wursten wrote:
< The gospel-reading you refer to as the "
Rogate-Reading" is St. Johns gospel 16: 23-30. Jesus says: "Ask and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full." Surprise: Hieronymus Latin translation of the gospel, the Vulgata, John 16:24, doesnot use the verb "rogare", but "petere". So it reads: "Petite et accipietis, ut gaudium vestrum sit plenum". >
Yet, my dictionary gives for "petere" "to pursue, to desire, to bargain, to demand". Remarkable that although the Vulgate uses "petere" in vs. 24, both my English and Dutch authorized versions of the Bible should use the word "to ask", which is "rogare" in latin. What is it in the Luther Bible? Does any Lutheran scholar or clergyman on this list have an explanation?

< You wrote: AFAIK the name of this sunday: 'Rogate' is linked to the oecological interdependance of men and nature. We -estranged modern men and women-live in oblivion, have lost consciousness of our manyfold links with nature, but in old days people were very aware of it : they had two special occasions to 'come to gods throne' because of this 'state of affairs'. Once to ask for a blessing over everything that grows on the fields and once to 'give thanks' for the fruit of nature that God has given. The last one we still know in a secularised form (Thanksgiving), the first one on a sunday in Spring, before Ascension Day: Therefore called sunday 'Rogate'. >
This would link the Sunday "Rogate" to our "Biddag voor gewas en arbeid", a day of prayer for growth and labour, which is still observed in my part of the Netherlands, which is sometimes called "the Bible belt" for obvious reasons. This day, however, is always on the second Wednesday of March. It is a holiday for our Christian schools.

Dick Wursten wrote (May 28, 2003):
[To Peter Bloemendaal] The problem is not the meaning of 'Rogate', that is almost the same as 'petite', but the origin of the name of the Sunday... the name simply cannot be derived from the lectio of the sunday, since Rogate is not in the lectio of the sunday (petite is) So this particular name has to come from some other text, probably a prayer or another lectio from the bible... I don't know and don't have the liturgical handbooks (romancatholic, pre-counciliary, Latin) which could give the answer.

 

Continue on Part 2

Cantata BWV 86: Details & Complete Recordings | Recordings of Individual Movements | Discussions: Part 1 | Part 2 | Part 3

Recordings & Discussions of Cantatas: Cantatas BWV 1-50 | Cantatas BWV 51-100 | Cantatas BWV 101-150 | Cantatas BWV 151-200 | Cantatas BWV 201-224 | Cantatas BWV Anh | Order of Discussion

Introduction | Cantatas | Other Vocal | Instrumental | Performers | General Topics | Articles | Books | Movies | New
Biographies | Texts & Translations | Scores | References | Commentaries | Music | Concerts | Festivals | Tour | Art & Memorabilia
Chorale Texts | Chorale Melodies | Lutheran Church Year | Readings | Poets & Composers | Arrangements & Transcriptions
Search Website | Search Works/Movements | Terms & Abbreviations | Copyright | How to contribute | Sitemap | Links



 

Back to the Top


Last update: ýSeptember 29, 2011 ý08:05:53