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Cantata BWV 103
Ihr werdet weinen und heulen
Discussions - Part 4

Continue from Part 3

Discussions in the Week of September 26, 2010

Ed Myskowski wrote (September 26, 2010):
Introduction to BWV 103 -- Ihr werdet weinen und heulen

Details and previous discussion archives can be found at:

http://www.bach-cantatas.com/BWV103.htm

A few of my personal favorite links are:

The translations of text by Francis Browne [English3], which are interlinear, and by Pamela Dellal [English6] of Bostons Emmanuel Music. She has sung all of the Bach cantatas, which I believe (from occasional conversations with her) gives her a uniquely personal perspective on the meanings.

The recently added commentary by Julian Mincham [Mincham], which is in fact a link to Julian’s on-line book, also accessible directly at: http://www.jsbachcantatas.com

Because of heavy social commitments this weekend, I will forego my usual synopsis of Dürr until a few days hence. Julians words will more than suffice in the interim. In fact, they are far and away the best general purpose introduction available. Nice job, Mate.

I will also defer comments on specific recordings, with the exception of this from Gardiners booklet notes:

<It [BWV 103] opens with a glittering fantasia for concertante violin doubling a sixth flute -- a soprano recorder in D. Only with the entry of the four vocal concertisten [...] do we realize that we have been caught unawares: the festive instrumental theme represents not the disciples joy at Christs resurrection but the sceptics riotous laughter at their discomfort -- hence the malicious cackles of the high recorder.> (end quote)

I hasten to add that this is by no means the only possible interpretation: see the brief summary by Julian, and extensive previous discussion at BCW.

A few thoughts on the translations, and the value of using more than one: Francis Browne renders the opening line as <You will weep and howl> while Pamela Dellal chooses <You shall weep and wail>. It really is illuminating to spend a few moments with these details. Note that Francis captures the etymologic similarity of the German heulen and the English howl (a point of discussion in previous years), while Pamela captures the alliteration of w in the German, with a familiar English expression, weep and wail.

Ed Myskowski wrote (September 29, 2010):
Ed Myskowski wrote:
< I will forego my usual synopsis of Durr until a few days hence. >
Here is a bit:

Durr begins his description of the music: <In form, the opening movement is very elaborately constructed.> In fact, the description by Julian Mincham is far more readable, if perhaps a bit less detailed. I find the following diagram from Dürr helpful in grasping the architecture of BWV 103/1.

Sinfonia

A -- Fugue I (Ihr werdet)
(Sinfonia, Part 1) + Chorus (aber die welt)

A* -- Fugue II (Ihr werden..., aber die welt)
(Sinfonia) + Chorus (aber die welt)
______________
B -- Recitative (Ihr aber traurig werdet sein)
______________
A* -- Fugue II (Doch ihr traurigkeit)
(Sinfonia) + Chorus (soll in Freude verkehret werden)

Durr links the two sections marked A* with a bracket to indicate their symmetry; (Sinfonia) indicates repeat of the opening instrumental themes in the chorus sections.

Ed Myskowski wrote (October 1, 2010):
Ed Myskowski wrote (September 25, 2010):
< I will also defer comments on specific recordings, with the exception of this from Gardiners booklet notes: >
<<It [BWV 103] opens with a glittering fantasia for concertante violin doubling a *sixth flute* -- a soprano recorder in D. Only with the entry of the four vocal *concertisten* [...] do we realize that we have been caught unawares: the festive instrumental theme represents not the disciples joy at Christs resurrection but the sceptics riotous laughter at their discomfort -- hence the malicious cackles of the high recorder.> (end quote) >>
Note the following, which specifically contradicts Gardiners *doubling*:

Thomas Braatz wrote (April 22, 2007):
<The NBA correctly recognizes these essential differences. It has printed the cantata with only the original Flauto piccolo part and has added the later "Violino Conc: ou [not 'col'] Trav" part as an appendix.>
I recall the statement that Gardiner had specific score updates, including but not limited to latest NBA, prepared for the year 2000 Pilgrimage Project. I am unable to recover a reference in support of this (help requested). In any case, doubling the flauto piccolo with violin, to my ears, dilutes the very effect, *malicious cackles*, that Gardiner emphasizes in his commentary.

For maximum appreciation of the piccolo effect (cackling or otherwise), I would suggest Leusink [6]. I make this suggestion without access to some of the highly regarded recordings of earlier discussions, most specifically Rilling [4]. I also make it as a specific reply to:

Francis Browne wrote (April 23, 2002):
< If this recording (Leusink[6]) were to turn out to be the 'quintessential favourite', I shall eat my hat. If also anyone has gained great pleasure from the Leusink recording, please do what I always do on such occasions - totally disregard such pestiferous, sourtempered quibbling. >
Disregard quibbling? I rather enjoy it, whether I happen to agree or not. Thanks to Francis for the humo(u)r. His hat is safe: Leusink was not a quintessential favorite, not even my first choice, despite great pleasure gained. I would go with Koopman [8] for a fine, up-tempo rendition of the piccolo option, and an alternative with traverso (conventional flute), no violin doubling in either version. Alto Bogna Bartosz with piccolo in Mvt. 3 is a personal choice for excellence, as well, although I am aware the counter-tenor partisans may scoff.

The conventional explanation for the alternate (later) version is that there was no piccolo available, or no one to play it. In the spirit of Brad Lehman, I would suggest that there are many more possible explanations: perhaps Bach my have changed his mind about what he preferred; after the original performance with piccolo, he simply wanted to hear something different in performance, for comparison; or he wanted to have plenty of alternatives available.

One intriguing possibility is that he did not intend *cackling* at all, was misunderstood at first, and wanted to avoid a recurrence of that misunderstanding. I would *channel* Bach, and give you the answer, were it not for this caveat from comedian Penn Jillette: <Channeling is just bad ventriloquism. You use another voice, but people can see your lips moving.>

There is a lot of discussion in the BCW archives about audibility of the piccolo, in various performances. I simply do not hear those difficulties, even with my tired old (Grateful Dead abused) ears. In particular, I think Frans Bruggen with Leonhardt [5] is superb. I wonder if the difficulty might be with individual sound reproduction systems? In any event, I find Leonhardt [5], Leusink [6], and Koopman [8] all nicely balanced, very audible piccolo, with Gardiner [7] obscured by the violin doubling. If there is recent info (no channeling, please!) that suggests Gardiner has the latest on Bachs intent, please post.

Bill Evans (jazz piano legend) has a classic recording, Conversations with Myself. Rather like writing introductions to the cantatas, at times. Special thanks to Will Hoffman and Doug Cowling for the ongoing contributions to the liturgical connections, and relevant chorales, for the crucial season from Easter to Ascension.

William Hoffman wrote (October 2, 2010):
Bach's unceasing string of original church service cantatas nearing two years in Leipzig took a major new direction in terms of both texts and music with the presentation of Cantata BWV 103, "Ihr werdet weinen und heulen" (Ye will be weeping and wailing) on Jubilate Sunday, the third after Easter Sunday, April 22, 1725.

It seems that Bach's series of musical sermons might have been running its cafter an initial cycle of 60 impressive and varied works, followed immediately on the Sunday After Trinity 1724 with a second cycle of 40 uniform yet original, striking and inventive chorale cantatas, and then a repetition of appealing, familiar and repetitive forms for the Easter Festival and its two succeeding Sundays.

Two of the most immediate Easter Season companion works to Cantata BWV 103 seem to commence with an air of predictability in their plaintive oboes and solemn voices: Salomo Franck's setting, "Weinen, Klagen, Sorgen, Zagen" (Weeping, crying, mourning, sighing) for the same Jubilate Sunday 1724 and the presumed Christian Weiss, Sr. setting, "Ich bin ein gutter Hirt" (I am the Good Shepherd) for the previous 1725 Sunday, Misericordias.

Now, a conjunction of favorable texts and chorales enabled Bach to inaugurate a new series of nine cantatas with textually compelling, varied structures, completing his second full cantata cycle on Trinity Sunday 1725. With Cantata 103, Bach had begun to embark on another adventure in his odyssey of a well-ordered church music to the glory of God, again achieving unity through diversity and a heterogeneous approach to composition.

The D Major, ¾ time opening fantasia, BWV 103/1, presents energized, affirmative music for oboes d'amore and strings sustained with recorder in the high range that is more reminiscent of the proclaiming high trumpet in the Second Brandenburg Concerto, a sort of Pied Piper. This tripartite chorale fugue with intermediary bass recitative takes up more than half of the approximately 16-minute cantata. It establishes the serendipitous collaboration of a gifted musician with a new poetic voice, that of Christiane Mariane von Ziegler.

BCW biography: http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Lib/Ziegler.htm

Ten years Bach's junior by birth (1695) and, ultimately, by death (1760), the already prominent feminist on short notice produced lyrics to fulfill Bach's structural plans. Her first significant poetic venture reveals an unusual gift for understanding Lutheran theology and biblical allusion (though she had no formal schooling), frequent use of biblical quotation, the themes of proclamation and silence, the Vox Christi/Dei element found in Bach's musical sermons, and a literary "depth of feeling and vibrancy of expression," observes Mark A. Peters in <A Woman's Voice in Baroque Music: Mariane von Ziegler and J. S. Bach (Ashgate 2008:74)

No doubt the Leipzig cantor commissioned Ziegler during the Lent season to produce these cantata texts for publication in libretto text books which the congregation would read while following the music. Since Jubilate or the Third Sunday After Easter, April 22, 1725, was the beginning of the series, the initial texts that Bach would set to music must have been edited and compiled for publication four weeks prior, by Holy Week, the last week in March 1725. The series would be printed in two successive publications, one for the four final Sundays in the Easter Season and Ascension Day, and the other for the three-day Feast of Pentecost and then Trinity Sunday, May 27, 1725. Thus, Bach would have secured Ziegler's commitment no later than four weeks prior to Holy Week, or the first of March. This enabled the poetess to submit two cantata librettos weekly, in chronological order, for any editing from Bach and presumably his presiding pastor, Christian Weiss, Sr.

To achieve a sound completion of his second cycle, Bach appears to have renewed his exploitation and utilization of the three basic principles or devices of rhetoric: symmetry, repetition, and contrast. Besides the limited time, certain other intervening factors required close collaboration between composer and lyricist. The texts would have to take into account a symmetrical plan or movement blueprint for each cantata, as well as for the individual aria and chorus structures, such as da-capo, binary or tri-partite forms. Repetition would involve both textual themes such as "sorrow-joy" for Jubilate Sunday and the deployment of the Vox Christi/Dei tradition, as well as Bach's first major venture into selective parody of arias from previous compositions for the cantatas for the three-day feast of Pentecost, BWV 74, 68, and 175. For contrast Bach would summon a wealth of movement combinations, embed recitatives in arias and choruses, and make special use of particular obbligato woodwind instruments and the violoncello piccolo as well as textural combinations of instruments and voices.

Bach framed his first and last Ziegler cantatas (BWV 103 and BWV 176) with his traditional, near-palindrome or mirror-form similar to the chorale cantatas of the second cycle and the first cycle six-movement cantata series of the mid-Trinity Season: chorus-recitative-aria-recitative-aria-chorale, designated ABCBCA.

For the seven cantatas in between, Bach also eschewed both the first-cycle expansive cantata form with two chorales and the first-cycle cantata form with opening sinfonia, most recently found in Quasimodogeniti Cantata BWV 42, "Am abend aber desselbigen Sabaths" (On the evening after that same Sabbath), and a form which Bach would utilize prominently in his third cycle. Bach also avoided using the third, more terse Cycle No. 1 cantata-form with two chorales used in the 1724 Easter Season and most recently found in Cantata BWV 42, "Ich bin ein gutter" (I am a Good Shepherd), for Miseriocordias or the Second Sunday After Easter Sunday.

Just about any form goes in the remaining seven Ziegler cantatas, displaying diversity and originality. While there are no cantatas with double chorales and no overt use of the three Cycle 1 established forms, Bach composed three cantatas without opening chorus (BWV 87, BWV 183, BWV 175), three with opening choruses (BWV 128, BWV 74, BWV 68 - the first and last are chorale fantasias) and one cantata (BWV 108) with a chorus in the middle, a rare Bach practice. Instead, Bach duplicated in Cantatas BWV 183 and BWV 175 the form of opening recitative-aria-recitative-aria-chorale; used back-to-back arias (another rare practice) to open Cantata BWV 108 and close Cantata BWV 87, and placed the double-aria in the exact middle of the expanded, eight-movement Pentecost Cantata BWV 74, a true palindrome form: ABCBBCBA.

Cantata BWV 103

Jubilate (Easter 3): Cantata BWV 103, Ihr werdet weinen und heulen (Ye will be weeping and wailing)
4/22/1725 (Cycle 2), repeat 4/15/31; chorus cantata, original text plus additions; sorrow to joy
Sources: (1) score (DS P.122, CPEB, Berlin Sing.); (2) parts set (St. 63, ?WFB, von Voß 1806)
Literature: BGA XXXIII (Rust 1876); NBA KB I/11,2 (Emans 1989); Whittaker II:309, Robertson 128f, Young 145f; Dürr (309-11); Peters <A Woman's Voice in Baroque Music: Mariane von Ziegler and J. S. Bach (Ashgate 2008):
Text: Ziegler 1728 (first printing three years after first performance), ed. JSB;
Chorale (#6): "Ich hab ein Augenblock" (I have Thee but a little while), S9, Gerhardt "Barmherzger Vater, höchster Gott" (Merciful Father, highest God, 18 verses) (melody "Was mein Gott will").
Forces: AT, 4vv, tp. (#5 only), picc. rec. (1731, vn. or fl.), 2 ob. d'a, str., bc.

Cantata BWV 103 movements are: 1. chorus (A,C] with recitative (B); 2 & 4. Two recitatives (tenor, alto); 3 & 5. two arias (alto, tenor); and 6. plain chorale. Bach's traditional Cycle 1 pallindrome form has an opening chorus, two recitatives alternating with two eight-line lyric arias, and a closing chorale. Besides the insertion of the bass recitative/ariso in the opening chorus, Bach's other departure from normal is the recitative-aria pairing of voices alternating instead of following: tenor (recit.)-alto (aria) and alto (recit)-tenor (aria). Perhaps this order is dictated by the accompanying solo instruments, piccolo recorder with (3) alto aria, and trumpet with tenor aria (5), with the piccolo recorder, which also lead the opening chorus(es), seemingly like a muted high trumpet.

1. Tripartite, B minor (dictum, John 16:20):

A. Chorus, moderato ¾, tutti but no trumpet:
Ihr werdet weinen und heulen, aber die Welt wird sich freuen.
You will weep and howl, but the world will rejoice.

B. Bass recitative/arioso with basso continuo, 4/4 adagio:
Ihr aber werdet traurig sein.
But you will be sorrowful.

[C. Chorus, Tempo 1, 3/4]
Doch eure Traurigkeit soll in Freude verkehret werden.
Yet your sorrow will be turned to joy.

German/English translation, interlinear format (Francis Browne):
http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Texts/BWV103-Eng3.htm

The relevant Gospel text, John 16:20 is found in BCW, http://www.bach-cantatas.com/LCY/Jubilate.htm:

[16:20] Verily, verily, I say unto you, That ye shall weep and lament, but the world shall rejoice: and ye shall be sorrowful, but your sorrow shall be turned into joy.

Author Peters particularly describes (pp. 94-99) two intrinsic elements in the great opening chorus, BWV 103/1: the use of the Vox Christi central bass recitative in the tri-partite form and its complement in the extended, surrounding opening and closing choruses. The voice of Christ is uniquely used in the middle of the chorus for one recitative-arioso line of sorrow in the midst of John's proclamation of sorrow turning to joy.

While Bach used the Vox Christi in eight of his previous cantata opening choruses, mingling biblical with poetic or chorale texts, this is Bach's first and only use of strict biblical dictum for both the chorus and soloist. In the closing chorus section, Bach "represented the text's transformation from sorrow to joy by employing a type of thematic transformation," says Peters. Thus Bach literally and figuratively "turned into" or "transformed" (verkehret) the musical setting of the biblical text from sorrow to joy.


2. Recitative, F3-C# minor; tenor, bc:

Wer sollte nicht in Klagen untergehn,
Who would not sink down in mourning
Wenn uns der Liebste wird entrissen?
when the beloved is snatched away ?
Der Seelen Heil, die Zuflucht kranker Herzen
The soul's saviour, the refuge of sick hearts
Acht nicht auf unsre Schmerzen.
pays no attention to our pains. (Francis Browne)

The first vocal solo is terse and straightforward, unlike the second recitative that is more expansive in Ziegler's published poetry. While Ziegler's recitative texts are generally simple, communicating the text, there is one example of the striking contrast of the settings of the thematic words "Schmerzen" (pain) in BWV 103/2 and "Freude" (joy) in BWV 103/4.


3. Aria, F# minor, 6/8; trio: alto, picc. rec., bc (binary form with ritronello shortening):

Kein Arzt ist außer dir zu finden,
No physician except you is to be found,
Ich suche durch ganz Gilead [1];
[even if] I should search through the whole of Gilead.
Wer heilt die Wunden meiner Sünden,
Who heals the wounds of my sins
Weil man hier keinen Balsam hat?
since here no one has any balm?
Verbirgst du dich, so muß ich sterben.
If you hide yourself, then I must die.
Erbarme dich, ach, höre doch!
Have mercy, ah! hear me!
Du suchest ja nicht mein Verderben,
You do not seek my ruin,
Wohlan, so hofft mein Herze noch.
so come, my heart still hopes. (Francis Browne)

[1] Cf. Jer. 8:22: "Is there no balm in Gilead? Is there no physician there? Why then has the health of the daughter of my people not been restored?" [Ambrose footnote]

Author Mark A. Peters points out an interesting Ziegler technique of "a change in thought over the course of an aria text," (p.111) which progresses from the opening statement to the end and thus, since there is no repetition of the original thought, there is no da-capo repeat but rather a binary form with shortened ritornello to emphasize the change at the conclusion. The speaker in this aria is the Christian Believer, says Peters. The same characteristics hold true for the second aria, No. 5, for tenor, which also has eight lines with the rhyme scheme ABABCDCD.

4. Recitative; B minor-D Major alto, bc:

BWV 103/4. Recit. (A)
Du wirst mich nach der Angst auch wiederum erquicken;
So will ich mich zu deiner Ankunft schicken,
Ich traue dem Verheißungswort,
Dass meine Traurigkeit
In Freude soll verkehret werden

When once my fear is past, thou shalt again restore me [2];
Thus will I me for thine approach get ready,
I trust in what thy word assures,
That all my sadness now
To gladness shall find transformation [3].

[2] Cf. Ps. 138:7: When I am surrounded by troubles, you keep me safe.

[3] Ziegler's printed edition is as follows:

Du wirst, mein Heyland, mich schon nach der Angst erquicken.
Wohlan! ich will mich auch zu deiner Ankunfft schicken.
Ich traue dem Verheissung-Wort,
Daß meine Traurigkeit,
Und diß vielleicht in kurtzer Zeit,
Nach bäng-und ängstlichen Gebehrden,
In Freude soll verkehret werden.

German text: BCW http://webdocs.cs.ualberta.ca/~wfb/cantatas/103.html
Thou shalt, my Savior, when once my fear is past, restore me.
So come! I will me also for thy coming ready.
I trust in what thy word assures,
That all my sadness shall,
And this perhaps in briefest time,
With timid, anxious gestures over,
To gladness find its transformation.

© Phillip Z. Ambrose
BCW: http://www.uvm.edu/~classics/faculty/bach/BWV103.html

The text difference between the shorter Bach Cantata BWV 103/4 version (1725) and the expanded version in Ziegler's later published poetry (1728) is that (according to Author Peters, p. 140, citing Dürr): "Bach's versions are by no means all improvements, rather at times poetically clumsy (BWV 103/4. . . ." [Review of <Der Welt der Bach Kantaten> 3 vols., <Theologische Rundschau 65 (2000): 104] . Thomas points out that initial assessments of Ziegler's cantata texts were based on Spitta's erroneous dating that Bach composed these cantatas in the 1730s, after Ziegler published the altered and expanded texts.


5. Aria, D Major, 4/4; tenor; tp., ob.d'a, str., bc (binary form with similar da-capo closing shortening):

BWV 103/5: lines 1-4 Francis Browne interlinear format:

Erholet euch, betrübte Sinnen,
Recover yourselves, my troubled senses,
Ihr tut euch selber allzu weh.
you make yourselves all too woeful.
Laßt von dem traurigen Beginnen,
Leave off your sorrowful beginning
Eh ich in Tränen untergeh.
before I drown in tears.

Author Peters points out Ziegler's "richness of her poetic language," citing (p. 75) in Cantata 103/5 lines 5-8):

Mein Jesus läßt sich wieder sehen,
My Jesus allows himself to be seen again,
O Freude, der nichts gleichen kann!
O joy, that nothing can equal!
Wie wohl ist mir dadurch g,
For all the good that has happened to me through this,
Nimm, nimm mein Herz zum Opfer an!
take, take my heart as an offering!

The tenor aria has allusions to John 16:22 Gospel reading [4]:

22. And ye now therefore have sorrow: but I will see you again, and your heart shall rejoice, and your joy no man taketh from you.

[4. Ulrich Meyer, <Biblical Quotation and Allusion in the Cantata Libretti of JSB> 1997:57]


6. Choral four-part, B Minor/aeolian or dorian, 4/4 (tutti): "Ich hab dich einen Augenblick" (I have thee but a little while). Bach closes with the 9th stanza of Paul Gerhardt's 18 verse sorrow-joy antithesis chorale text, "Barmherzger Vater, höchster Gott" (Merciful Father, highest God), set to the affirmative melody "Was mein Gott will" (What my God wills). It is Bach's only treatment of Gerhardt's text while the melody, based on a French chanson, is used in Epiphany Cantatas BWV 72/6 and BWV 111/1, 6; Septuageisma Cantata BWV 144/6, and St. Matthew Passion, BWV 244/25.

Ich hab dich einen Augenblick,
I have for a moment,
O liebes Kind, verlassen;
my dear child, left you;
Sieh aber, sieh, mit großem Glück
but see, see, with great good fortune
Und Trost ohn alle Maßen
and comfort beyond all measure
Will ich dir schon die Freudenkron
I shall on you the crown of joy
Aufsetzen und verehren;
place and honour;
Dein kurzes Leid soll sich in Freud
Your brief suffering will into joy
Und ewig Wohl verkehren.
and everlasting good be changed.

The entire 18-stanza chorale text and Francis Browne translation, a psalmic prayer of comfort and prayer, is found at BCW: http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Texts/Chorale078-Eng3.htm

Ed Myskowski wrote (October 2, 2010):
William Hoffman wrote:
< No doubt the Leipzig cantor commissioned Ziegler during the Lent season to produce these cantata texts for publication in libretto text books which the congregation would read while following the music. Since Jubilate or the Third Sunday After Easter, April 22, 1725, was the beginning of the series, the initial texts that Bach would set to music must have been edited and compiled for publication four weeks prior, by Holy Week, the last week in March 1725. The series would be printed in two successive publications, one for the four final Sundays in the Easter Season and Ascension Day, and the other for the three-day Feast of Pentecost and then Trinity Sunday, May 27, 1725. Thus, Bach would have secured Ziegler's commitment no later than four weeks prior to Holy Week, or the first of March. This enabled the poetess to submit two cantata librettos weekly, in chronological order, for any editing from Bach and presumably his presiding pastor, Christian Weiss, Sr. >
I do not believe we have ssen this key chronologic analysis before, in BCW discussions. Analogous thinking would also explain why Bach needed (or chose) to repeat earlier works for the Easter season in 1725.

Douglas Cowling wrote (October 3, 2010):
William Hoffman wrote:
< Thus, Bach would have secured Ziegler's commitment no later than four weeks prior to Holy Week, or the first of March. This enabled the poetess to submit two cantata librettos weekly, in chronological order, for any editing from Bach and presumably his presiding pastor, Christian Weiss, Sr. >
Given the absence of documents, can we really be this precise in our dating of Bach's compositional method? There is next to no external evidence about the production calendar of Bach's cantatas, a problem exacerbated by the composer's disinterest in dating his work. The difference between him and Handel is striking: the latter regularly noted the day as he composed his oratorios.

In Bach's case, we can't even tell if he was a fast or slow composer by contemporary standards. Nor do know or certain whether the "closed" seasons Advent and Lent were necessarily filled with composition although they may well have been filled with rehearsals for the heavy schedules of Holy Week/Easter and the 12 Days of Christmas.

I guess I'm wondering if Bach's compositional method was so well-regulated that it extended back over months or years. Once he had decided to revise the St, John Passion (BWV 245) for Good Friday 1725, why could the process not have extended as a work in progress over the whole year? Similarily, once Bach had targeted Christmas 1734 as the year for his oratorio, why couldn't the secular cantatas of 1733-34 been part of the original compositional process?

How long in advance did Bach, Ziegler and Weiss discuss cantatas? Why not a year before as the Sunday's texts passed before them?

William Hoffman wrote (October 13, 2010):
Johann Ludwig Bach (1677-1731): JLB-8, "Die mit Tränen säen" (Those who sow with tears) [Psalm 126:5-6] (Leipzig 5/12/1726 [uncertain], c.1743-46) (Prince Ernst of Meiningen/Rudolstadt text).
BCW: http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Other/Bach-JL-JLB8.htm
Psalm 126: 5 Those who sow in tears
will reap with songs of joy.
6 He who goes out weeping,
carrying seed to sow,
will return with songs of joy,
carrying sheaves with him.
5 Die mit Tränen säen, werden mit Freuden ernten.
6 Wer weinend dahingeht und den auszustreuenden Samen trägt, wird mit Freuden kommen und seine Garben bringen.

Score: Die mit Tränen säen : Kantate für vier Singstimmen, zwei Violinen, Viola und Generalbass / Johann Ludwig Bach ; hrsg. von Hans Hornung und Martin Gotthard Schneider. Neuhausen-Stuttgart : Hänssler-Verlag, [c1976]. Stuttgarter Bach-Ausgaben : Serie A, Bach-Archiv, Kompositionen von Mitgliedern der Musikerfamilie Bach aus der Meininger, der Erfurter, der Arnstädter und der Fränkischen Linie : 1. Gruppe, Meininger Linie
Hänssler Edition 30.001. For solo voices (SATB), chorus (SATB), 2 violins, viola, and continuo; figured bass realized for organ or harpsichord by P. Horn. English version by J. Lunn. Edited principally from ms. parts in the Staatsbibliothek Preussischer Kulturbesitz, Berlin. Duration: ca. 20 min. Pref. in German and English.
Chorale: JLB-8/8, Grünwald "Komm her zu mir, spricht Gottes Sohn" (1530, Mat. 11:28; 16 stanzas); E3, "Es euch das Kreuz, Ihr aber werdt, Und was der ewig Gütig Gott" (S.14-16). Other chorale uses: BWV 86/3 "Und was der ewig Gütig Gott" (S. 16) E5; melody only in BWV 108/6, Gerhardt "Gott Vater, senden deine Geist" (S.10 of 16) E4; melody only also in BWV 74/8, "Gott Vater, sende deinen Geist" (S.2) P; chorale setting for organ (Rinck Collection, doubtful), BWV deest Emans 125.
The J.L. Bach Cantata JLB-8 that Sebastian presented in Leipzig uses the last three verses of Grünwald's chorale, "Kommt her zu mir, spricht Gottes Sohn" (Come here to me, speaks God's Son), an affirmation of joy through faith.

1 Chorus. Die mit Tränan säen (Ps. 126:5-6);
2. Recitativo (A): Bei unverdroßnem Schweiß;
. Aria(A). Tau und Tränen;
4. Duetto (T,B). Denn ich halte es dafür (Rom. 8:18);
5. Aria (S). Dringt, ihr Qualen auf mich her;
6. Recitativo (S). Es kann die Seel;
7. Chorus. O angenehmer Tausch; chorale (3 verses)

Douglas Cowling wrote (October 13, 2010):
William Hoffman wrote:
< Johann Ludwig Bach (1677-1731): JLB-8, "Die mit Tränen säen" (Those who sow with tears) [Psalm 126:5-6] (Leipzig 5/12/1726 [uncertain], c.1743-46) Psalm 126:
5 Those who sow in tears
will reap with songs of joy.
6 He who goes out weeping,
carrying seed to sow,
will return with songs of joy,
carrying sheaves with him. >
It's interesting to see how often this text is set by Lutheran composers beginning back with Schütz and extending into the 19th century to Brahms' "German Requiem" -- although he would protest being called a "Lutheran composer."

Kim Patrick Clow wrote (October 13, 2010):
William Hoffman wrote:
< The J.L. Bach Cantata JLB-8 that Sebastian presented in Leipzig uses the last three verses of Grünwald's chorale, "Kommt her zu mir, spricht Gottes Sohn" (Come here to me, speaks God's Son), an affirmation of joy through faith. >
Is that the Grunewald who worked with Christoph Graupner in Darmstadt, or another person?

 

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