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Recordings & Discussions of Cantatas: Cantatas BWV 1-50 | Cantatas BWV 51-100 | Cantatas BWV 101-150 | Cantatas BWV 151-200 | Cantatas BWV 201-224 | Cantatas BWV Anh | Order of Discussion

Cantata BWV 65
Sie Werden aus Saba alle kommen
Discussions - Part 3

Continue from Part 2

Discussions in the Week of October 18, 2009

William Hoffman wrote (October 17, 2009):
Cantata BWV 65: Intro. Part 1

BWV 65 "Sie Werden aus Saba alle kommen"
("All they from Sheba shall come"

INTRODUCTION

Basic Information

Event in the Lutheran church calendar: Cantata for the Feast of Epiphany

Readings: Epistle: Isaah 60: 1-6; Gospel: Matthew 2: 1-12
See: http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Read/Epiphany.htm

Composed: Leipzig, 1724

First Performed: January 6, 1724 - Leipzig

Text: Isaiah 60: 6 (Mvt. 1); Paul Gerhardt (Mvt 7); Anon (Mvts. 2-6)

Access to the previous BCW discussion of Cantata BWV 65 can be found at:
http://www.bach-cantatas.com/BWV65.htm

Texts: The librettist of BWV 65 may be Christian Weiss, Sr., accessed at BCW:
http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Lib/Weiss-Christian.htm

Texts of Bach Cantatas & Other Vocal Works by Christian Weiss, Sr.
Wustmann and Neumann suggest: BWV 37, BWV 44, BWV 67, BWV 75, BWV 76, BWV 81, BWV 104, BWV 154, BWV 166, BWV 179
Others (Terry, Young) suggest also: BWV 40, BWV 42, BWV 45, BWV 46, BWV 64, BWV 65, BWV 69, BWV 77, BWV 89, BWV 102, BWV 105, BWV 110, BWV 119, BWV 120, BWV 136, BWV 143.

In an attempt to identify the author of some of the new texts for Bach's first Leipzig cantata cycle (1723-24), Albert Schweitzer examined contexts, circumstances and internal philology to suggest possible texts of "Author A." BWV 22 and BWV 23 (Quinquageisma 1723 probe), BWV 75 and BWV 76 (initial first cycle works for the First and Second Sundays After Trinity), BWV 154 (First Sunday After Epiphany 1724), and BWV 245 (Passion, Good Friday 1724).

Translation of Cantata BWV 65, Francis W. Browne, BCW:
http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Texts/BWV65-Eng3.htm

Chorales used in this cantata
Bach used two chorale melodies in this cantata:
1. Ein Kind geborn zu Bethlehem (Puer natus in Betlehem). See:
CT: http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Texts/Chorale075-Eng3.htm
CM: http://www.bach-cantatas.com/CM/Ein-Kind-geborn-zu-Bethlehem.htm

2. Was mein Gott will, das g'scheh allzeit with the alternative text, Ich hab in Gottes Herz und Sinn. See:
CT: http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Texts/Chorale076-Eng3.htm
CM: http://www.bach-cantatas.com/CM/Was-mein-Gott-will-das-gscheh-allzeit.htm

Epiphany "Season"

Epiphany means "to show," "to make known" or "to reveal." It represents Jesus revealed to the Gentiles, as shown in the recognition or adoration of the Three Kings, Wise Men or Magi. The three are thought to have been learned members of the Eastern Zoroastrian religion, best known in Friedrich Nietsche's book (and Richard Strauss' tone poem) "Also Sprach (Thus Spake) Zarathustra (Zoroaster").

The actual Epiphany "Season" is a mixed, in-between, overlapping time - in fact, it is not even a church season, based in part on its treatment in Lutheran hymn books and Bach-era chorale settings. In traditional Christian practice It was the period from the fixed date festival of the Feast of Epiphany or the Adoration of the Magi, on January 6 to Ash Wednesday or the beginning of the Lenten season. The theme of "epiphany" or illumination is repeated in the lectionaries, or appointed readings, for the intervening Sundays, from the Baptism of Our Lord to the Transfiguration of Our Lord and includes such other revelatory events as Jesus' first miracle at the wedding feast at Canaan to the calling of the disciples.

By tradition, the Feast of Epiphany marked the end of the 12-day Christmas season while it is observed in certain cultures and regions as the profane celebration of Jesus' Coming or the alternate Christmas Day celebration.

Today, the so-called Epiphany Season is recognized and observed in the Lutheran Church as a period of Standard Sundays or Green Sundays (the color of the paraments and vestments). This means that Epiphany time is an "omnes tempore" period, like the last half of the calendar and church year, called the Trinity Season or the Twenty-some Sundays After Pentecost. These Standard Sundays emphasize the timeless teachings of Jesus Christ, rather than the milestone events in his life. The established, fixed "de tempore" or timely seasons of Christmas and Easter-Pentecost, are preceded by fixed observance periods of reflection and temperance, called Advent and Lent. The "de tempore" seasons of Christmas and Pentecost end, respectively, with the Feasts of Epiphany and Trinity Sunday. My primary source is <Keeping Time, the Church's Years, Using Evangelical Lutheran Worship, Vol.3> (Aubsburg Fortress, 2009).

The Advent and Lent seasons in Leipzig were called "tempus clausum," or closed time when figural music was forbidden. The Picander libretto cycle of 1728-29 does include settings for the three closed Sundays in Advent and the five Sundays in Lent, as does poetess Marianne von Ziegler's complete cycle written in 1730.

Epiphany Cantatas

By 1727, Bach had begun to curtail his production of church-year cantatas during the Epiphany time and began to substitute the first of some 18 cantatas of his cousin, Johann Ludwig Bach. Perhaps he did this in part in to prepare for the presentation of the annual Good Friday Passion at the end of Lent. Three Bach cantatas are extant for the first two Sundays after Epiphany (BWV 154, BWV 124, BWV 32; and BWV 155, BWV 3, BWV 13), four for the Third Sunday (BWV 73, BWV 111, BWV 72, BWV 156), two for the Fourth Sunday (BWV 81, BWV 14) and none for the less-frequent fifth and sixth Sundays. Bach composed three cantatas for the three pre-Lenten Sundays: Septuageisma (BWV 144, BWV 92, BWV 84), Sexageisma (BWV 18, BWV 181, BWV 126) and Quinquageisma (BWV 22, BWV 23, BWV 127, BWV 159).

As to the question about why large church attendance in the later Epiphany season, followed by the three Sundays ("gesimas" or "Lord's Day") before Lent. I can only conjecture, based upon some possible historical threads and an old Lutheran Book, <The Church Year,> by Paul Zeller Strodach (United Lutheran Pub., 1943). The author contrasts the curtailed late Epiphany season of naming and manifestation with the preparation for the introspective Lent Sea. Specifically, the Fourth Sunday After Epiphany could be considered for the Lord of Nature; the Fifth for the Lord of Teaching or the Word.

As to possible historical threads. The period before Lent, especially in Catholic areas is Mardi Gras, Fasching, Carnival, but usually around Ash Wednesday. Another celebration in Leipzig was the annual Winter Fair, or Neujahrs. Like the other two fairs, it lasted three weeks and then the week after the fair (Zahlwoche -- Accounting), merchants who obtained proper permission were allowed to continue to sell goods while taxes were being assessed" (George B. Stauffer, "Leipzig: a Cosmopolitan Trade Centre," Music and Society: Late Baroque Era, p. 257). So the fair could last until January 28 in the fixed Epiphany season, beginning January 6, with the Fourth Sunday After Epiphany falling as early as January 28. We know from the church records that attendance went up during the fairs, especially the Spring or Easter starting at Jubilate Sunday (3rd after Easter), and the Autumn, St. Michael's, Sept. 29, beginning Oktoberfest. Perhaps the Leipzig Protestants in January were getting a leg up on their Catholic brethren in Dresden and especially Munich. (from BWV 14, Discussion, Oct. 19, 2008:)

Chorales

In Bach's time and before, the Epiphany period was not observed in the Lutheran hymn books as a season for distinct chorale settings, between hymns for the Advent-Christmas Season and Easter-Pentecost Season. In both the Neumeister and Orgelbüchlien collections of organ chorale prelude settings for the church year, there are no designated Epiphany hymns, just as in the hymn books there are no sections titled "Epiphany Hymns." Instead, the hymn books have a topical, "omnes tempore" collection of some 28 chorales under the heading "Jesus Hymns." These include Jesus hymns used by Bach in four cantatas for Epiphany time (BWV 81, BWV 123, BWV 124, BWV 154): "Liebster Immanual, Herzog des Frommen," Meine Jesum lass ich nicht," Jesu, meiner Seelen wonne," and "Jesu, meine Freude," says Günther Stiller in <JSB and Liturgical Life in Leipzig> (p. 249, Concordia, 1984).

In the Haenssler recordings of the Complete Bach Edition of the chorales BWV 250-507, there is no listing for "Epiphany" cantatas. Instead, there is the listing: Edition Bachakademie Vol. 84, A Book of Chorale-Settings for Patience & Serenity/Jesus Hymns. The chorales and songs are: BWV 335, 339, 352, 353, 355, 361, 379, 380, 384, 409, 417, 419, BWV 1125

In his Epiphany time cantatas, Bach used four pre-Epiphany chorales: "Peur natus in Betlehem" (BWV 65/2), "Ich stehe in deiner Krippen hier" (BWV 248VI/6[59])), "Ach Gott, wie manches Herzeleid" (BWV 3), and "In allen meinen taten" (BWV 13/6).

Thus, the Feast of Epiphany includes Christmas hymns like "Peur natus in Betlehem," closing the Christmas Season, while the Epiphany Period emphasizes "Jesus Hymns" which can be used at other times, as well as Passion-related hymns. The closing, fixed three pre-Lent (Vorfastenzeit) Sundays are misnamed Septuageisma, Sexageisma, and Quinquageisma (70, 60 and 50 days before the Lord's Day) and can include Lenten hymns. Bach seized the advantage, using a range of chorales to fulfill his "well-regulated music for the church year."

Bach's chorale cantatas (Cycle 2) for the First through the Fourth Sundays after the Feast of Epiphany are: 1. BWV 124, "Meinen Jesum, lass ich nicht;" BWV 3, "Ach Gott, wie manches Herzeleid"; 3. BWV 111, "Was mein Gott will, das g'scheh allzeit"; and 4. BWV 14, Waer Gott nicht mit uns diese Zeit."

Besides setting these Epiphany chorales, Bach used the following "Jesus Hymns" in Epiphany time cantatas:

Jesu, meine Freude (BWV 81/7)
Jesu, meiner Seelen wonne (BWV 154/3)
Liebster Immanual, Herzog des Frommen (BWV 123)
Meinen Jesum lass ich nicht (BWV 124, BWV 154/8)

Bach also used these chorales in Epiphany time cantatas:

Freu dich sehr, meine Seele (BWV 32/6)
Herr, wie du willt, so sichts mit mir (BWV 73/1, BWV 156/6)
Machs mit mir Gott, nach deiner Gut (BWV 156/2)
Was mein Gott will, das g'scheh allzeit (BWV 72/1) (BWV 144/6)

For the three pre-Lent "geisma" Sundays, Bach composed chorale cantatas BWV 92, "Ich hab in Gottes Herz und Sinn"; BWV 126, "Erhalt uns, bei deinem Wort"; and BWV 127, "Herr Jesu Christ, wahr Mensch und Gott."

Bach also composed three cantatas for each of the three pre-Lent Sundays: Septuageisma (BWV 144, BWV 92, BWV 84), Sexageisma (BWV 18, BWV 181, BWV 126) and Quinquageisma (BWV 22, BWV 23, BWV 127, BWV 159).

In addition, Bach used both Passion and non-Passion chorales in his nine pre-Lent cantatas:

Was Gott tut, das ist wohlgetan (BWV 144/3)
Wer nur den lieben Gott, laesst walten (BWV 84/5)
Durch Adams Fall ist ganz verderbt (BWV 18/5)
Herr Christ, der einig Gottes Sohn (BWV 22/5)
Christe, du Lamm Gottes (BWV 23/4)
Herzlich tut , etc. (BWV 159/2)
Jesu, Kreuz, Leiden, Pein und Tod (BWV 159/5)

Introduction: Part 2, Bach's Magi Cantata, the Horn, and the Dance

Douglas Cowling wrote (October 17, 2009):
William Hoffman wrote:
< In his Epiphany time cantatas, Bach used four pre-Epiphany chorales: "Puer natus in Betlehem" (BWV 65/2) >
A polyphonic treatement of "Puer Natus" was assigned as the Introit motet, sung as the clergy entered the church at the beginning of the service. "Sie Werden Aus Saba" has a very unusual feature: the elaborate opening chorus is followed immediately by the Epiphany verse of the "Puer Natus". Bach may seen the opening chorus as the "travelling music" of the Three Kings travelling from the East, followed by their symbolic "introit" into the house of Mary of Joseph.

Are there any other cantatas which have a concerted chorus followed immediately by a chorale?

William Hoffman wrote (October 17, 2009):
Douglas Cowling wrote:
< Are there any other cantatas which have a concerted chorus followed immediately by a chorale? >
William Hoffman replies: I'm still trying to find other opening choruses followed by four-part chorales. Cantata BWV 23 (Quinquageisma)has a chorus and then the closing four-part chorale chorus setting of "Christe, de Lamm Gottes."

Meanwhile, I find Bach during this time making topical and tactical placement of chorales, for example, in BWV 153, a solo cantata for the Sunday After New Years, opening with a four-part chorale which is a collective warning of the threat of evil against the beleaguered world. Cantata BWV 154 for the First Sunday After Epiphany, also early 1724, following the opening tenor aria and recitative, uses the chorale as a plea for the little Jesus to save the world from evil. Thus, with Cantata BWV 65's chorale as the second movement, we have three successive cantatas with plain chorales placed as the opening, second, and third movements, respectively. More than coincide?

Ed Myskowski wrote (October 17, 2009):
William Hoffman wrote:
>In traditional Christian practice It was the period from the fixed date festival of the Feast of Epiphany or the Adoration of the Magi, on January 6 to Ash Wednesday or the beginning of the Lenten season. <
EM:
Although we have belabored this point (if not beaten it to daath), it is perhaps worth a reminder that Epiphany is a fixed calendar event. At the other end of the Epiphany period, Ash Wednesday begins the moveable feast of the Easter season. Logical? No. Loveable? In the eye of the beholder.

WH:
>By tradition, the Feast of Epiphany marked the end of the 12-day Christmas season while it is observed in certain cultures and regions as the profane celebration of Jesus' Coming or the alternate Christmas Day celebration. <
EM:
Well, my Hispanic (if not so Christian, any longer) spouse will have a few words to say about the profane nature of Three Kings Day. I celebrate every day of the year as special. Out of respect for her, I go along with the decorations which go up on Christmas Eve (Dec. 24) and stay up unitl Jan. 6. That is when the gifts come, no? Gold, frankincense, myrhh. Perhaps a nice cigar.

WH:
>The Advent and Lent seasons in Leipzig were called "tempus clausum," or closed time when figural >music was forbidden. <
EM:
It is my understanding that this condition is specific to Leipzig, in Bachs era, and is not inherent to the Lutheran concept of theology. Correction/elaboration invited.

WH:
>As to the question about why large church attendance in the later Epiphany season, followed by the three Sundays ("gesimas" or "Lord's Day") before Lent. <
EM:
What question? What large church attendance? Come on, some of us read this stuff.

WH:
>The period before Lent, especially in Catholic areas is Mardi Gras, <
EM:
Now we are getting somewhere!

Ed Myskowski wrote (October 17, 2009):
William Hoffman wrote:
< We know from the church records that attendance went up during the fairs, especially the Spring or Easter starting at Jubilate Sunday (3rd after Easter), and the Autumn, St. Michael's, Sept. 29, beginning Oktoberfest. Perhaps the Leipzig Protestants in January were getting a leg up on their Catholic brethren in Dresden and especially Munich. (from BWV 14, Discussion, Oct. 19, 2008:) >
EM:
The evidence for high church attendance in Leipzig in late January is sketchy? But the concept of a Lutheran Mardi Gras in Leipzig is so charming, I will give it a pass!

Ed Myskowski wrote (October 17, 2009):
William Hoffman wrote:
< Meanwhile, I find Bach during this time making topical and tactical placement of chorales
[...]
Thus, with Cantata BWV 65's chorale as the second movement, we have three successive cantatas with plain chorales placed as the opening, second, and third movements, respectively. More than coincidence? >
Bach? Coincidence? Not likely. In the scheme of well regulated church music, do you think that the arrangement of chorales in Jahrgang I is already a prelude to the chorale set, Jahrgang II? Doug has suggested something along these lines, I believe: that Bach had a grand architectural scheme in mind for several cantata cycles. The working out may be a step shy of completion?

Douglas Cowling wrote (October 17, 2009):
Cantata BWV 65: Chorales

William Hoffman wrote:
< William Hoffman replies: I'm still trying to find other opening choruses followed by four-part chorales. Cantata BWV 23 (Quinquageisma)has a chorus and then the closing four-part chorale chorus setting of "Christe, de Lamm Gottes." >
If I'm not mistaken, this chorale replaced the last chorale in the St. John Passion which of course follows immediately upon a concerted chorus.

Cantata 40, "Dazu ist erscheinen" also has an unusual layout: every free movement (with the exception of the opening chorus) is followed by a straight-forward chorale:

1. Chorus
2 Recitative (alto)
3. Chorale
4. Aria (bass)
5. Chorale
6. Aria (tenor)
7. Chorale

Three chorales in such rapid succession give the cantata the feel of a passion.

Julian Mincham wrote (October 17, 2009):
[To Douglas Cowling, regarding Chorales] I take it what is looked for is the insertion of plain four part harmonisations of chorales? There are several examples of Bach's using more than one chorale in a number of forms in the one cantata particularly in the first cycle where he seems to be experimenting with different combinations , perhaps to see what worked best. BWV 95 for example has three chorales, one in the first chorus, one sung in full by the soprano in the third movement and the usual closing 4-parter. If you do look at this cantata, take a glance at the opening chorus with the interpolations of alternating 2/2 and 3/4 bars in the middle section---fascinating stuff.

BWV 48 is another example of the insertion of a 4-part chorale as movement three, following a recitative. It is not the same one that is used in the opening chorus and again at the end. Worth looking at the harmonisation which is pretty standard except for the unexpected chromatic touches in bar 2 and at the end----presumably reminders of the sins and punishments so graphically pictured in the opening movements.

Douglas Cowling wrote (October 17, 2009):
Ed Myskowski wrote:
WH:
>> The Advent and Lent seasons in Leipzig were called "tempus clausum," or closed time when figural >music was forbidden. <<
EM:
< It is my understanding that this condition is specific to Leipzig, in Bach's era, and is not inherent to the Lutheran concept of theology. Correction/elaboration invited. >
The tradition of "giving up" concerted music for Lent (and Advent) seems to have crystallized at the beginning of the 17th century when the "Second Practice" of Monteverdi introduced solo singing and independent orchestra into church music. It quickly became a tradition that old-style contrapuntal music was graver and more suited to the penitential seasons. The return of concerted music also theatrically signalled the arrival of the festival seasons of Christmas and Easter. In the half-century after Bach, we see Catholic composers such as Michael Haydn writing "a capella" mass settings based on plainsong. Catholics also placed restrictions on the organ, especially in Holy Week. Beethoven famously skirted the prohibtion on playing the organ by accompanying the chanting of the "Lamentations" on the piano!

The tradition was also part of the Lutheran tradition. At the beginning of the 17th century, Praetorius does not set big block-buster polychoral motets for the Advent and Lenten season, preferring more austere counterpoint. As with Catholics, these traditions were not an intrinsic part of the rite, but were applied in various ways: Weimar and Leipzig had different customs.

It's worth pointing out that the prohibition on concerted music did not mean that the services were less musical or less splendid. The motet repertoire of the 16 - 18th centuries which Bach performed during these seasons included large double-choir works of high drama. A good example is the Hassler "Ad Dominum Cum Tribularer" which is full of hair-raising chromatic counterpoint and expressive Mannerist effects.

Even today, choirs look forward to Advent and Lent because the a capella repertoire is so rich. Anyone can write a trumpet fanfare, but a nice bit of tortured counterpoint is much more exciting.

Douglas Cowling wrote (October 17, 2009):
Julian Mincham wrote:
< There are several examples of Bach's using more than one chorale in a number of forms in the one cantata particularly in the first cycle where he seems to be experimenting with different combinations , perhaps to see what worked best. >
"Wachet Auf" BWV 140 is probably the greatest example of this genre of chorale cantatas.

Julian Mincham wro(October 17, 2009):
Douglas Cowling wrote:
< "Wachet Auf" BWV 140 is probably the greatest example of this genre of chorale cantatas. >
In fact of the 52 chorale/fantasias (42 in the second cycle if we exclude BWV 4 and ten later ones) there are a number of examples of superb works where Bach uses, usually the same chorale in all or most of the movements.

William Hoffman wrote (October 18, 2009):
Julian Mincham wrote:
< In fact of the 52 chorale/fantasias (42 in the second cycle if we exclude BWV 4 and ten later ones) there are a number of examples of superb works where Bach uses, usually the same chorale in all or most of the movements. >
William Hoffman replies: Wait till we get to Chorale Cantata BWV 127 for Estomihi, next May. The opening chorus has three Passion chorales: "Herr Jesu Christ, wahr' Mensch und Gott" in the chorus, "Herzlich tut mich verlangen" in the bass and basso continuo, and "Christe, du Lamm Gottes" in the orchestra.

Ed Myskowski wrote (October 19, 2009):
Douglas Cowling added to the thread:
< The tradition of "giving up" concerted music for Lent (and Advent) seems to have crystallized at the beginning of the 17th century when the "Second Practice" of Monteverdi introduced solo singing and independent orchestra into church music. >
Very informative, thank you. Which also gives me an opportunity to apologize for being a bit flippant (who, me?) in response to Wills posts re Epiphany/Mardi Gras.

(1) If there is evidence for increased church attendance in Leipzig in the post-Epiphany season leading up to Lent, it may have relevance to the inspiration for Bachs cantatas.

(2) On further reflection, I still find the concept of Lutheran Mardi Gras charming.

Neil Halliday wrote (October 19, 2009):
Douglas Cowling wrote:
>Bach may have seen the opening chorus as the "travelling music" of the Three Kings travelling from the East<
Robertson picks up on the image of motion :"One pictures the great caravan of camels with the kings and their attendants passing across the desert".

Suzuki's 'easy-going' tempo (4.25) is particularly effective in conjuring up the image of the rolling, swaying motion of the camels; faster more dance-like tempos miss this striking image.

[I also like the 'royal' richness of Suzuki's horns sounding at the written pitch; the timbre of Rilling's horns sounding an octave higher seems insipid in comparison].

The fugal section features a number of highly effective stretti (at a beat's distance; a beat is a dotted crotchet) with the full bar of semiquavers (the second half of the fugue subject) overlapping in close succession. Particularly interesting are the stretti which have the vocal basses leading the recorders in bar 37, and the recorders leading the basses in bar 43.

(Given my experience with the Rilling recording, most recordings will not make this last stretto audible; with all the forces involved in the counterpoint at this point, this would no doubt be be difficult to achieve on recordings, if not in performance).

Other stretti (all at a beat's distance; the fugue subject is two bars long) are at:

1. bar 27; bass leads sopranos,
2. bar 29; sopranos lead basses,
3. bar 35; sopranos lead altos,
4. bar 37, noted above,
5. bar 43, noted above.

There is also a stretto - in bars 40 and 41 - where the altos lead the sopranos at a distance of one bar.

Suprisingly - and this won't be evident on first hearing - there is only one bar (bar 42) in the entire fugal section (bars 19 to 45) where the fugue subject is not sounding on at least one stave.

An elaborate chorus indeed!

Neil Halliday wrote (October 19, 2009):
Neil Halliday wrote:
>there is only one bar (bar 42) in the entire fugal section (bars 19 to 45) where the fugue subject is not sounding on at least one stave.<
This should be bar 39 (I think); anyway the full score can be viewed at: http://www.bach-cantatas.com/BGA/BWV065-BGA.pdf

Other attractive features of this score are the close canonic vocal entries over a pedal point in the continuo; note the rich stereophonic effect on Suzuki's recording, and the powerful pedal point itself on Kuijken.

Kim Patrick Clow wrote (October 19, 2009):
Neil Halliday wrote:
< [I also like the 'royal' richness of Suzuki's horns sounding at the written pitch; the timbre of Rilling's horns sounding an octave higher seems insipid in comparison]. >
Sorry, "royal" or not, but lowered horn parts aren't being played correctly. True the parts in this cantata are extremely difficult, and I believe Paul McCreesh's recording [11] horns use the correct pitch (the liner notes suggest his recording was the first to do it). No word from the camel demographic what they thought of the music, at least not yet.

Douglas Cowling wrote (October 19, 2009):
Kim Patrick Clow wrote:
< Sorry, "royal" or not, but lowered horn parts aren't being played correctly. True the parts in this cantata are extremely difficult, and I believe Paul McCreesh's recording [11] horns use the correct pitch ( the liner notes suggest his recording was the first to do it). No word from the camel demographic what they thought of the music, at least not yet. >
McCreesh's notes [11] lifts the veil for a moment over the technical difficulties faced by modern performers. McCreesh records that he spoke to Harnoncourt about the horn parts being played "in alt" and was told that the latter's players at the time couldn't manage the range.

Some of playing is pretty rough in "Sie Werden Aus Saba" and the Mass in F, but McCreesh's breakneck tempos [11] may contribute to the problem.

Does anyone have the story on octave placement in Baroque music for horns? It's particularly interesting in Handel's oratorios where the composers gives the trumpets and horns the same music.

Kim Patrick Clow wrote (October 19, 2009):
Douglas Cowling wrote:
< Does anyone have the story on octave placement in Baroque music for horns? It's particularly interesting in Handel's oratorios where the composers gives the trumpets and horns the same music. >
I can't speak for Handel, but I've NEVER seen any horn and trumpet parts in Endler, Telemann, Fasch, Graupner using the same stave in a score, and never seen parts marked as being shared. Graupner's scores mark the horn in bass clef and the orchestral parts survive with treble clef in C major (with some hints what the instrument was), usually "D" or "F" or "G" to let you know the pitch was. I had a horrible source to deal with once for a Graupner suite, it was a working score, and the horns consisted of one in F (!) and the other G (!) and the key was in D major. But Graupner would forget which horn was which and it was such a mess. For Graupner, whenever horns are used WITH trumpets, they fill out the middle harmonies mostly.

Kim Patrick Clow wrote (October 19, 2009):
Douglas Cowling wrote:
< Does anyone have the story on octave placement in Baroque music for horns? It's particularly interesting in Handel's oratorios where the composers gives the trumpets and horns the same music. >
I couldn't resist this since it's on topic (Handel with horns and trumpets). Telemann wrote 2 Royal Fireworks Musics (years before Handel did) and they were scored for 12 horns, 12 trumpets, and 3 timpani. None of the music has survived unfortunately, but given my keen fancy for baroque brass musi, I would have loved to seen how Telemann handeled the horn parts ahem ;)

Julian Mincham wrote (October 19, 2009):
Kim Patrick Clow wrote:
< I couldn't resist this since it's on topic (Handel with horns and trumpets). Telemann wrote 2 Royal Fireworks Musics (years before Handel did) and they were scored for 12 horns, 12 trumpets, and 3 timpani. None of the music has survived unfortunately, but given my keen fancy for baroque brass music, I would have loved to seen how Telemann handeled the horn parts ahem ;) >
And might Handel have pinched the music as he did so often, in order that he could 'Tell-a-mann' to write out the parts, ready for performance?

Sorry, trouble with these bad puns is that they are catching!

Kim Patrick Clow wrote (October 19, 2009):
Julian Mincham wrote:
< And might Handel have pinched the music as he did so often, in order that he could 'Tell-a-mann' to write out the parts, ready for performance?
Sorry, trouble with these bad puns is that they are catching! >
Hee hee ;)

Douglas Cowling wrote (October 19, 2009):
Julian Mincham wrote:
< Sorry, trouble with these bad puns is that they are catching! >
Worse in German .. You may have business beside the brook.

P.S. Handel lived on Brook Street in London

Julian Mincham wrote (October 19, 2009):
[To Douglas Cowling] Funnily enough I was thinking about going bach to Leipzig--but zee-bastion of the French nation separates us!

William Hoffman wrote (October 20, 2009):
Cantata BWV 65: Intro. Part 2

Bach's Magi Cantata

As Alfred Duerr and others have observed, Bach completed his first Christmas season in his Leipzig cantata cycle with BWV 65, "They will from Sheba all come," the cantor's first Magi cantata, with its rich scoring and structural text. Ironically, after creating some eight crowning works, Bach would turn to more intimate pieces and in succeeding years diminish his service production. Perhaps it was a literal as well as figurative preparation for the annual obligation of a Passion on Good Friday.

The research shows that Bach began to turn to texts and chorales which, while illuminating the earliest manifestations of Jesus' importance as well as impending suffering and death, deliberately restricted his creative output. Initially, for succeeding Feasts of Epiphany, Bach produced only one work, the chorale Cantata BWV 123, "Beloved Immanuel (God With Us), Lord of the Righteous."

For the Feast of Epiphany 1726, in his third cantata cycle Bach may have presented a Telemann cantata, possibly "Ich freue mich in Herzen," TVWV 1:826, originally for the 20th Sunday After Trinity, or another solo work for Epiphany, "Hier ist mein geliebster Jesu," TVWV 1:795. In 1729 Picander produced a libretto, dictum "Dieses ist der Tag, den der Herr" (This is the day of the Lord)), P.11. No Bach music survives, except possibly for the closing chorale, "Lobt Gott, ihr Christen allzegleich," BWV 375-76. Interestingly, Bach had just set Picander texts for the two previous feast days, Christmas, "Glory to God in the Highest," BWV 197a, and New Years, "God, so like thy name, thus also thy fame," BWV 171.

Bach finally made amends for the Feast of Epiphany 1735 with the closing Part 6 of his Christmas Oratorio, a full setting of the gospel Magi story, Matthew 2:1-12. "Lord, when the stiff-necked foes do rage," BWV 248VI. Meanwhile, there is no documentation that Bach repeated any of his three offerings for the Feast of Epiphany. It is possible that Cantata BWV 65 was repeated, since the best evidence, the parts set, does not survive. It is assumed that it went to Friedemann in the first cycle division, alternating manuscripts scores and parts sets between him and Carl Philipp Emanuel, and was lost. The score of BWV 65 was inherited by C.P.E., as well as sketches of the gorgeous opening chorus, found in the score of Cantata BWV 81, "Jesus sleeps, what shall I hope," for the Fourth Sunday after Epiphany, composed and presented 24 days later on January 30, 1724. Both the scores and the sketches now reside in Berlin.

Much has been written about the majesty of the opening processional chorus of the Magi. The colorful pastoral wind instrumentation "has its own theological significance," says Robin A. Leaver, in his notes, "Lutheran Epiphany Mass," Leipzig, c.1740," in the Paul McCreesh omnibus realization [11], "Bach Epiphany Mass," Archiv recording 1998. The instruments represent "the three gifts, (the gold by the horns, the exotic frankincense by the hybrid oboes da caccia and the myrrh - used for embalming - by the recorders which had their own associations with funeral music)." The recorders, for example, also are found in Sicul's contemporary description of the performance of Bach's Funeral Ode, BWV 198, in the Leipzig University Church in 1727, and in the Actus Tragicus," BWV 106, of 1707.

"Further," says Leaver, "the opening motif, often said to represent the swaying camels of the Magi, is built upon three groups of three notes, alluding again to the kings, and their gifts. Although it is the last line of the epistle (Isaiah 60: 6) that is the starting point for this cantata, it is a commentary on the gospel of the day."

Deurr in the <Cantatas of JSB> (p. 175), describes the opening da capo chorus as "an impressive picture of the crowds flocking past. Canonic and fugal devices keep bringing before the eyes of the listener the increasing size of the worshiping multitude." Nicholas Anderson (OCC:JSB, 450) repeats this description of the "gathering hosts of the Gentiles bearing gifts" and suggests that the "dance-like 12/8 rhythm reflects the joyful fulfillment of the biblical prophecy." It is a pastorale-giga, says Doris Finke-Hecklinger in <Dance Character in the Vocal music of JSB> 1970 (p. 155). Little & Jeanne in <Dance and the music of JSB> http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Topics/Dance.htm labels it "Giga II." Both dance sources consider the sixth movement tenor aria, "Take me to Thyself as Thineown," 3/8 andante, to be a minuet with tutti orchestra of the winds plus strings, also accompanying the two plain chorales, Movements Nos. 2 and 7.

Is it a coincidence that the opening chorus B section fugue begins with bass and then tenor -- the two vocal soloists paired in inmate yet descriptive recitative-aria combinations - movements Nos. 3-4 and 5-6? And, why just those two solo voices?

I also find Doug Cowling's thoughts found in BCW 10/16/09 to be serendipitous:

A polyphonic treatment of "Puer Natus" was assigned as the Introit motet, sung as the clergy entered the church at the beginning of the service. "Sie werden aus Saba" has a very unusual feature: the elaborate opening chorus is followed immediately by the Epiphany verse of the "Puer Natus". Bach may have seen the opening chorus as the "traveling music" of the Three Kingstraveling from the East, followed by their symbolic "introit" into the house of Mary and Joseph.>

Turning to the golden horns, I am reminded in the opening Magi chorus of another wonderful, brassy opening chorus, "Dazu ist erschienen," BWV 40, for the Third Day of Christmas," performed December 27, 1723, just 10 days prior! Bach later parodied that movement as the closing "sicut erat in principio" of the Missa Brevis iF, BWV 233, possibly commissioned by the horn advocate, Count von Sporck. Another coincidence or just a serendipitous situation? You'll find both the Missa and Cantata BWV 65 in the McCreesh <Bach Epiphany Mass> [11].

Here's my take on Bach and the horn c. 1724. I start with a quote from W. Gillies Whittaker's Bach Cantatas (II: 703f) near the end, in his discussion of the Peasant Cantata gallant bass solo with horn, No. 16, "Es nehme zehntausand Dukaten":

"Count von Sporck, a Stattholder of Bohemia, was a noted friend of music and spent his wealth freely in its cause. He sent German artists to be educated in Italy, he introduced Italian opera [especially Vivaldi] into Bohemia, he made two of his servants learn the newly invented `French horn', and so made it known in Germany. Picander dedicated to him his first collection of religious verse [1725], in spite of the fact that it was Protestant in character and Sporck a devout Catholic. But the count viewed matters of religion with a tolerance rare in those narrow-minded and embittered times. He must have been friendly towards Bach, because the <Sanctus> of the Hohe Messe was sent to him by the composer. He allied to his cultural and religious interests a zeal for hunting. Gottfried Benjamin Hanke, a Silesian Clerk of the Excise in Dresden, wrote a hunting song for the Count, `Frisch auf zum froehlichen Jagen.. This was in 1724; it was popular in Bohemia in 1730, and was so well known in Saxony in 1742, the date of the cantata [BWV 212], that it is incorporated as a local folk-tune."

IMVHO it is quite possible that Count Sporck visited Leipzig at Christmas 1723 and stayed on for the Winter Fair through Epiphany time. This was also about the time Bach began using texts of Picander. The Sanctus was presented on Christmas Day. Another possible coincidence, though still tenuous, is the bass aria with horn solo, "Quoniam to solus sanctus," the penultimate number in Bach's 1733 Missa discussed above. It may be a parody of an aria from the Feb. 12, 1725, sacred wedding Cantata BWV Anh. 14, "Thy blessing flows there like a storm," for the wedding of a Leipzig merchant, possibly a friend of von Sporck.

Next: Part 3: Epiphany Time and Jesus Hymns

Neil Halliday wrote (October 20, 2009):
Kim Patrick Clow wrote:
>Sorry, "royal" or not, but lowered horn parts aren't being played correctly. True the parts in this cantata are extremely difficult<
Interesting. I wonder if others feel that Suzuki's horns at the lower pitch are quite effective in this opening chorus.

BTW, I mistakenly said that Suzuki's horns sounded at the written pitch while Rilling's horns sounded an octave higher than written - in fact it's Rilling's horns that sound at the written pitch; whereas Suzuki's (and Richter's and Koopman's) sound an octave lower than written.

I wonder why Richter chose the lower octave for his horns, since his modern instruments could presumably have easily played in the higher octave.

Kim Patrick Clow wrote (October 20, 2009):
Neil Halliday wrote:
< BTW, I mistakenly said that Suzuki's horns sounded at the written pitch while Rilling's horns sounded an octave higher than written - in fact it's Rilling's horns that sound at the written pitch; whereas Suzuki's (and Richter's and Koopman's) sound an octave lower than written. >
I'm not sure why. The BGA score PDF on the BCW has everything at concert pitch (i.e. "C"), so that's not helpful to see what clefs were used in the original sources. My hunch is the original may have been written in bass clef and the BGA assumed the music would played an octave higher? Just a guess on my part. Richter's version with the horns that low is pretty bad, you barely can hear them.

Douglas Cowling wrote (October 20, 2009):
Kim Patrick Clow wrote:
< The BGA score PDF on the BCW has everything at concert pitch (i.e. "C"), so that's not helpful to see what clefs were used in the original sources. >
Horn parts in music before the 20th century are nearly always written in C major in the treble clef and players transpose at sight. Orchestral parts generally note "Horn in G" or "Horn in C", depending on the tonic key of the movement. By the time of Wagner, the horn parts are marked with ever-changing notations to mark the composer's relentless modulating music. In the 20th century, everything began to be written for Horn in F.

The cantata and mass under discussion are both scored in F major. The question before musicians is whether Bach intended the horns to sound a fifth below or a fourth above ('in alt') Older conductors like Richter
(modern intstruments) and Harnoncourt (period instruments) used the lower register; more recent conductors like Rilling (modern) and McCreesh (period) [11] use the upper registers.

The difference is quite arresting. The lower octave gives the warm mellow sound we associate with Romantic music. The upper octave is a much more aggressive and brilliant sound which is quite brassy.

Kim Patrick Clow wrote (October 20, 2009):
Douglas Cowling wrote:
< Horn parts in music before the 20th century are nearly always written in C major in the treble clef and players transpose at sight. Orchestral parts generally note "Horn in G" or "Horn in C", depending on the tonic key of the movement. >
Well that's true for any transposing instrument of the baroque, e.g. chalumeaux, trumpets, flute/oboe d'amore, and even recorders can be a bit of a tough nut to crack. The horn parts are often notated in bass clef in the 18th century scores ( I see this ALL the time in Graupner), and the orchetral parts will be in C major and have treble clefs. As I mentioned earlier, that Graupner suite in D major but with a horn in F major and another one in G major was a nightmare to figure out, because apparently even Graupner was confused.

< The cantata and mass under discussion are both scored in F major. >
The PDF of the cantata on the BCW is NOT in F major, its in C major. That's what set a red flag up for me, that's a bit of an usual key for a piece with horns. I would love to see a screenshot of the horn parts for this cantata source, if it exists.

IF are fascinated by baroque brass music as much as I am, there is a fantastic story online about the recreation of a very obscure instrument used by Bach in one cantata BWV 118, called the "lituus." It's a long thin wooden horn and was recreated in Britian by some specialists and played (apparently with great hardship I might add) and recorded.

Full story can be read online @
http://blogs.nature.com/news/thegreatbeyond/2009/06/bachs_bizarre_horn_born_again.html

Douglas Cowling wrote (October 20, 2009):
Kim Patrick Clow wrote:
< The PDF of the cantata on the BCW is NOT in F major, its in C major. >
Sorry, I was referring to Cantata 40, "Dazu ist erscheinen"

Julian Mincham wrote (October 20, 2009):
William Hoffman wrote:
< Ironically, after creating some eight crowning works, Bach would turn to more intimate pieces and in succeeding years diminish his service production >
Why 'ironically'? In fact there is something of a pattern in the first cycle of Bach's moving from large to smaller scalel works and back again. He seems to have pulled out all the stops for the initial set of works, mostly in two parts and when that wasn't possible be cobbled two together to make it appear like a two part cantata, BWV 185 and BWV 167. Thereafter there are a number of smaller works including his first solo work at Leipzig, BWV 199. Before the Christmas celebrations, there are four cantatas which have no chorus except for the chorales---instead they open witharias. There is also a fairly regular alternation of newly composed and older works presented throughout.

I suspect that Bach had his annual programmes worked out pretty early on, at least in outline knowing full well that the most pressing periods for both himself and the performers were his first introductory group of cantatas, where he was establishing his reputation, thence he Xmas and easter celebrations. I would also guess that in the weeks of lesser pressure with smaller works both to compose and rehearse (e.g the quartet of BWV 89, BWV 163, BWV 60 and BWV 90) he was probably also in full flow preparing the Xmas works----which in themselves he may have seen as another public test of his professionalism in his new appointment.

Also of course there were the presentations of the Magnificat at Xmas and the SJP at Easter!

Whilst the first cycle did not demonstrate a cohesiveness ot certainty about the shape and form of 'well regulated church music' (as in the second) it does reveal something of Bach's careful planning of his workload throughout the year.

Neil Halliday wrote (October 21, 2009):
Cantata BWV 65: Intro. Part 1 - horn pitch

Interestingly, the editors of the BCW vocal-piano reduction score have reproduced the opening horn parts in the lower octave, creating the the mellow "romantic" era effect proposed by Douglas.
----
Notice that by reversing the first two notes of the first phrase of BWV 65's closing chorale (soprano line), we get the fugue subject of the 'St. Anne'.

Chris Kern wrote (October 22, 2009):
BWV 65

I listened only to the Harnoncourt version. I think this cantata benefits from a historical instruments approach because of the scoring (using the oboes and cornos de caccia and the flauto dolce). The most remarkable movement for me is the 6th; it's rare to see such lush and expansive scoring for a single-voice aria. Offhand I don't know of other arias that have a full 4-part strings plus three groups of obbligato instruments.

Ed Myskowski wrote (October 22, 2009):
Chris Kern wrote:
< Offhand I don't know of other arias that have a full 4-part strings plus three groups of obbligato instruments. >
Perhaps another bit of evidence that Bach did not use formulaic instrumentation for particular events, but rather that he strove for maximum variety -- individuality, uniqueness -- within his overall highly structured (well-regulated?) architecture: individual cantatas, perhaps the entire Jahrgang II as well.

Neil Halliday wrote (October 23, 2009):
Chris Kern wrote:
>Offhand I don't know of other arias that have a full 4-part strings plus three groups of obbligato instruments.<
Not quite as remarkable, but I notice that less than a month later Bach scored the opening alto aria of BWV 83 for two horns, two oboes, solo violin plus full strings.

Ed Myskowski wrote (October 23, 2009):
BWV 65 and BWV 552

I am unclear on the protocol for comparisons of vocal and non-vocal works, hence the duplicate mailing.

Neil Haliday wrote:
< Notice that by reversing the first two notes of the first phrase of BWV 65's closing chorale (soprano line), we get the fugue subject of the 'St. Anne'. >
I always enjoy tracking down these coincidences, which in this case for me, began with identifying the St. Anne (BWV 552). From notes (signed Craig Timberlake) to a 2-CD set by Gloria Dei Cantores (coincidentally recorded in 1999 at Methuen Memorial Music Hall, much noted in recent reports of the centennial events):

<The Prelude and Fugue in E flat (BWV 552) creates the frame for arguably Bachs greatest liturgical [?!] work for organ [?, keyboard],, Clavierbung III. Published in 1739, the prelude and fugue were added to the collection of chorales based upon Martin Luther's Greater and Lesser catechisms. [...] The five-voice fugue often referred to as the St. Anne for the opening subjects likeness to the famous chorale tune ...> (end quote)

This raises more questions than it answers, for me, including the two bracketed within the citation. Perhaps others can help.

(1) What is the collection of chorales based on Luthers catechisms?

(2) Other sources (BCW archives, filed under Other/Handel) suggest that the sobriquet St. Anne was applied somewhat later, based on similarity to an English hymn tune very unlikely to have been known to Bach.

(3) Is there such a tune as the St. Anne chorale? I find no reference to it in readily available (internet search) soures.

(4) Why does no one that I can find refer to Ste. Anne in this instance? I trust there are no snide gender inferences involved, rather that this is simple oversight and/or bad habit, perhaps beginning with the original English hymn?

(5) Durr gives the chorale melody source for BWV 65/7 as <Was mein Gott will, das g*scheh allzeit>. Has this melody previously been associated with the fugue subject for BWV 552?

Neil Halliday wrote (October 24, 2009):
Ed Myskowski wrote:
>(1) What is the collection of chorales based on Luthers catechisms?<
I believe this question has been responded to on BRML.

See also: http://www-personal.umich.edu/~jkibbie/clavieruebung_volume_iii.htm

(If the link fails, google 'ClavierUbung III')

The answers to the other questions are explored in the following sites: http://www.answers.com/topic/st-anne-1

"Eng. hymn&#8208;tune of disputed orig. but probably comp. by William Croft, who pubd. it in 1708. Usually sung to words 'O God, our help in ages past'. J. S. Bach's Fugue in E&#9837; for org. (last item of Klavierübung, Book 3, 1739) begins with same notes and is known in Eng. as St Anne Fugue."
http://www.bach-cantatas.com/CM/Was-mein-Gott-will-das-gscheh-allzeit.htm#Bach

(If this link is too long, the page can be accessed from the BCW BWV 65 page)

"The melody (of the BWV 65 chorale, among others) was composed by Claudin de Sermisy (circa 1495-1562) who was a famous French composer at home in both secular and sacred music"

Douglas Cowling wrote (October 24, 2009):
Neil Halliday wrote:
< Eng. hymn&#8208;tune of disputed orig. but probably comp. by William Croft, who pubd. it in 1708. Usually sung to words 'O God, our help in ages past'. J.S. Bach's Fugue in E&#9837; for org. (last item of Klavierübung, Book 3, 1739) begins with same notes and is known in Eng. as St Anne Fugue." >
Handel uses the distinctive opening theme at the beginning of the Chandos Anthem, "O Praise the Lord with One Consent". It would interesting to know if he was alluding to the Croft hymn or the Lutheran chorale. Lutheran chorales were prohibited in Anglican churches, but Handel used this theme as well as "Christ Lag in Todesbanden" in "Let God Arise."

Kim Patrick Clow wrote (October 24, 2009):
Douglas Cowling wrote:
< Handel uses the distinctive opening theme at the beginning of the Chandos Anthem, "O Praise the Lord with One Consent". It would interesting to know if he was alluding to the Croft hymn or the Lutheran chorale. Lutheran chorales were prohibited in Anglican churches, but Handel used this theme as well as "Christ Lag in Todesbanden" in "Let God Arise." >
Doesn't Handel quote a Lutheran hymn in the funeral ode for Queen Caroline "The Ways Zion Do Mourn"?

Douglas Cowling wrote (October 24, 2009):
Kim Patrick Clow wrote:
< Doesn't Handel quote a Lutheran hymn in the funeral ode for Queen Caroline "The Ways Zion Do Mourn"? >
Handel quotes "Du Freidenfurst Herr Jesu Christ" in "She deliver'd the poor that cried." He also quotes the Handl "Ecce Quomodo Moritor" which which was a Lutheran funeral staple and sung in Leipzig after the Passion on Good Friday. Bach would haveperformed it every year.

Neil Halliday wrote (October 24, 2009):
Ed Myskowski wrote:
>5) Durr gives the chorale melody source for BWV 65/7 as <Was mein Gott will, das g*scheh allzeit>. Has this melody previously been associated with the fugue subject for BWV 552?<
From the Novello edition of Bach's organ works (consulted after my original post):

<"(Harvey) Grace tried to find an excuse for the fugue by suggesting that Bach might have taken its subject from a variant of the chorale 'Was mein Gott will' (the first two notes in reversed order). Unfortunately for this likely sounding suggestion, no such variant seems to have been recorded".

Bradley Lehman wrote (October 24, 2009):
< Eng. hymn&#8208;tune of disputed orig. but probably comp. by William Croft, who pubd. it in 1708. Usually sung to words 'O God, our help in ages past'. J.S. Bach's Fugue in E&#9837; for org. (last item of Klavierübung, Book 3, 1739) begins with same notes and is known in Eng. as St Anne Fugue." >
Heinz Lohmann (Bach organ edition) points out a handful of possible connections, including an E major fugue by Buxtehude. Peter Williams (book about all of Bach's organ music) adds the similarity to a fugue subject by Hurlebusch, Leipzig 1735, while also arguing against it....

 

"Horn" parts, instruments and players in BWV 65

Frits van Laeken Herbold Fritz V. Herbold wrote (January 15, 2010):
Dear Aryeh, dear participants of the Cantata discussions

I know Aryeh is on a different calendar, but nevertheless a great 2010 to all of you!

I hope you can help me with my inquiry below. I am preparing a discussion for the BCW about the “horn” parts in BWV 65, that JSB wrote in fact for “Corne du Chasse” (according to the extant Score Autograph) and are mostly played by traditional horns or “Corni di Caccia”, which are very different instruments altogether as explained by Gisela and Jozsef Csiba in their book “The Brass Instruments in JSB’s Works”, 1994 Merseburger. Also, both BG and NBA (that used the same source material) ignored Bach’s original indication that these parts were to be played on a “Cor(n)e du Chasse” in the original notation from c’ to a’’! See JPEG file!

Only 4 recordings observe the correct notation (but not the correct instruments): [9] Rilling, with Horns; [10] Greg Funfgeld with horn (only 1 horn played by Daniel Braden mentioned, but clearly 2 horns are played); [11] McCreesh with horns at “trumpet pitch” and [17] Kuijken with “Corni di Caccia” (better, but not correct considering that we know the difference to the real “Corne du Chasse” today.

[8] Harnoncourt, with horns, is humble enough to explain in his booklet (“Notes on the performance”) that he knows that he is playing at the wrong pitch with his instruments but points out, that “…in due course other solutions will be found”. It is strange, that both [12] Koopman, [15] Leusink and [16] Suzuki ignored such solutions (playing at C-alto) since at the time of these recordings the knowledge was there, as McCreesh proved.

In a nutshell, there is still no recording of BWV 56 available, played with the original “Corne du Chasse” from c’ to a’’ instead of Horns or Corni di Caccia”! By the way: Gisela and Jozsef Csiba give an illustration of the “Corne du Chasse” in the mentioned book on page 47 and you can clearly see the difference – specially diameter of the bore - to the 2 “Corni di Caccia” illustrated on pages 41 (narrow-wound) and 44 (large-wound). I am also attaching the correspondent PDF files.

I do not own the old LP recordings [1] Curt Sachs, [2] Roger Wagner and [4] Marcel Couraud, but I have all the other recordings as CD’s (I am waiting to receive [13] Graig Smith and cannot (humbly) opine yet).

Question 1: Do you have by chance these original LP’s that mention the instruments and their players?

[3] In the new Ramin Edition 1999 from Leipzig Classics (Edel) there is no concrete mention of the horn instruments neither of their players, although you can hear the horns (at the wrong, lower pitch) playing in Mvts. 1,6 and 7.

Question 2: Do you have by chance the original LP or any other CD edition that mention the instruments and their players?

[5] In the new Werner Edition 2004 from Warner Classics there also is no concrete mention of the horn instruments neither of their players, although you can hear the horns (at the wrong, lower pitch) playing in Mvts. 1,6 and 7.

Question 3: Do you have by chance the original LP or any other CD edition that mention the instruments and their players?

I am very grateful for your help!

PS: I do not want to be a bother to you with these 3 questions Aryeh, but you might forward these questions to the experts like John Pike, Neil Halliday, Kim Patrick Clow and Chris Kern, who commented on this topic before or please explain again how I could post this inquiry directly on BachCantatas@yahoogroups.com if I did it wrong this time.

See:
Autograph Score BWV 65, Page 1 Recto, Nvt. 1, Bars 1-5a, detail + touchup [jpg]
Corno du Chasse cropped [PDF]
Corno da Caccia, Engwindig cropped [PDF]
Corno da Caccia, Grossdwindig cropped [PDF]

Thomas Braatz wrote wrote (January 15, 2010):
The attached PDF attempts to present material which might point out some important arguments pro and con regarding this hotly debated issue whether horns called for in Bach's music should be played at the higher or lower octave.

See: The Üse of Horns in BWV 65 "Sie Werden aus Saba alle kommen"

 

Cantata BWV 65: Details & Complete Recordings | Recordings of Individual Movements | Discussions: Part 1 | Part 2 | Part 3

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Last update: ýSeptember 29, 2011 ý11:03:19